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St. Andrew's Episcopal Church (Walden, New York)
Encyclopedia
St. Andrew's Episcopal Church is located at the corner of Walnut and Orchard Street in the village of Walden
, New York, United States. It is a brick Gothic Revival structure designed and built in 1871 by Charles Babcock
, a former partner of Richard Upjohn
. Located at the center of town, near the village hall, it is a local landmark that dominates the village's skyline
.
Babcock, who was himself an Episcopal priest
, designed the building with the Ecclesiological theories of Anglican church architecture in mind. It has been renovated slightly since its construction, and joined to a nearby chapel
, but remains largely intact, exemplifying those theories. In 2008 the church and its rectory
were listed on the National Register of Historic Places
.
, the church and its rectory
. A chapel
that was originally freestanding has been connected to the church.
faces east, towards the triangle of Orchard, Scofield and Walnut streets at the center of town. Opposite is the village's memorial to the local members of the 124th New York Volunteer Infantry Regiment
, the "Orange Blossoms", who served with distinction in the Union Army
during the Civil War
. The village hall is located kitty-corner to it on Walnut Street.
It is a single-story brick structure with a steeply-pitched
gable
d roof. On the southeast side of the nave
, near the front entrance, is a bell tower
with a tall spire
. It and the church's main roof are shingled
in slate
. The walls are reddish-brown brick laid in common bond. The foundation
is of locally-quarried brownstone
, with a datestone
in the southeast corner.
Three narrow Gothic lancet window
s resting on a brownstone course
are evenly spaced across the front, with a roundel
high above. The roofline is marked by a corbel
led cornice
with a metal Latin cross at the gable's apex. The main entrance, at the foot of the bell tower, has double wooden doors, each with a St. Andrew's cross
in the lower corner, set in a Gothic arch surrounded with three brick courses. A louver
ed, recessed Gothic arch marks the bell stage of the tower, which then gives way after brief corbels to the spire, topped with another cross.
The four-bay
south face, looking out on Orchard Street, has a pair of lancet windows, similar to but smaller than their counterparts on the front. It is broken by the chapel transept
, where another lancet window was once bricked over. To the west of the transept is the connection to the chapel. On the north side are an identical grouping of windows and a porch
which provides direct access to the nave. A tall brick chimney
rises from the wall here.
Inside, the sanctuary
has the pew
s arranged with a center aisle and two side ones along the walls. The ceiling is made of beaded
wooden boards that expose the hammerbeam roof
's truss
es. Chamfer
ed wooden posts rise up to it from between the lancet window pairs on either side. A carved wooden altar
with Gothic motifs sits in front of the lancet windows in the west wall. In the rear are an office and robing room.
The basement is largely unfinished and used for storage. Support functions, such as a kitchen and meeting space, are handled by the rooms of the former chapel.
Its finishes inside date from the original construction and later renovations. Of note from the latter are the front staircase and architrave
between the front and rear parlors.
, which sought a return to more traditional religious practices in Anglicanism. In architecture that meant the older forms of the English country parish church, many built during the Middle Ages, such as St Michael's Church, Longstanton
, which has a similar main block to St. Andrew's.
Babcock's initials are found on many sketches of Upjohn's, including one church with tower in Upjohn's pattern book Rural Architecture that strongly resembles St. Andrew's. Christ Church in Ballston Spa
, completed by Upjohn's office after he left, also bears a resemblance, although its massing and decoration
are less restrained than Babcock typically was.
For St. Andrew's, he offset the tower to the side, a variation that had become popular with Ecclesiological architects around the mid-19th century. This created a more Picturesque
effect than leaving it in the center. Because of this, and the limitations of the lot
, the church's chancel is on the west end rather than liturgical east as most Ecclesiologist-influenced churches do.
The rectory, completed slightly after the main church, shows more vernacular
influences of its day, and those of later renovations. Its main design is Italianate
, but the current porch, rebuilt in the early 20th century, is a Craftsman
-style treatment of the original.
to the Hudson Valley
from London. After the Revolution
, it shared its rector with St. George's in nearby Newburgh
.
Congregants had moved from a primitive log cabin
to a more permanent meetinghouse as the church grew, and in 1826 they decided to build a larger one in Walden, at the time an unincorporated preindustrial hamlet known mainly for its mill on the Wallkill River
. It was finished and consecrated
in September 1827.
After the Civil War
, the church needed to expand again. It bought the current lot in 1871 from William Scofield, after whom a nearby street is named, for $800 ($ in 2009 dollars). Babcock, at the time transitioning from his position as rector of St. James' Church in Arden
to the first professor at what is now Cornell University
's College of Architecture, Art, and Planning
, delivered plans and construction documents before leaving for Ithaca. Local contractors using local materials were hired, and the church was finished later that year. The debt incurred by the construction was enough that it took until 1880 to pay off, and only then was the church formally consecrated.
The rectory was built the following year. In 1884 the congregation decided to accommodate continuing growth by building the chapel on the western end of the lot. At the turn of the century the oil lamp
s that had originally lit the church's sanctuary were replaced with electric models, and in 1915 the rectory received its remodeled porch and some changes to the interior, such as the rear parlor fireplace
.
Eventually the congregation decided to combine the chapel and church into one large building. This began in 1924 with a simple hyphen, and culminated 15 years later with the current linkage and its accompanying changes to the chapel's fenestration
. The church and rectory have remained intact since that time.
Walden, New York
Walden is the largest of three villages of the Town of Montgomery in Orange County, New York, United States. The population was 6,978 at the 2010 census. It has the ZIP Code 12586 and the 778 telephone exchange within the 845 area code...
, New York, United States. It is a brick Gothic Revival structure designed and built in 1871 by Charles Babcock
Charles Babcock
Charles Babcock was a United States architect, academic, Episcopal priest and founding member of the American Institute of Architects....
, a former partner of Richard Upjohn
Richard Upjohn
Richard Upjohn was an English-born architect who emigrated to the United States and became most famous for his Gothic Revival churches. He was partially responsible for launching the movement to such popularity in the United States. Upjohn also did extensive work in and helped to popularize the...
. Located at the center of town, near the village hall, it is a local landmark that dominates the village's skyline
Skyline
A skyline is the overall or partial view of a city's tall buildings and structures consisting of many skyscrapers in front of the sky in the background. It can also be described as the artificial horizon that a city's overall structure creates. Skylines serve as a kind of fingerprint of a city, as...
.
Babcock, who was himself an Episcopal priest
Priest
A priest is a person authorized to perform the sacred rites of a religion, especially as a mediatory agent between humans and deities. They also have the authority or power to administer religious rites; in particular, rites of sacrifice to, and propitiation of, a deity or deities...
, designed the building with the Ecclesiological theories of Anglican church architecture in mind. It has been renovated slightly since its construction, and joined to a nearby chapel
Chapel
A chapel is a building used by Christians as a place of fellowship and worship. It may be part of a larger structure or complex, such as a church, college, hospital, palace, prison or funeral home, located on board a military or commercial ship, or it may be an entirely free-standing building,...
, but remains largely intact, exemplifying those theories. In 2008 the church and its rectory
Rectory
A rectory is the residence, or former residence, of a rector, most often a Christian cleric, but in some cases an academic rector or other person with that title...
were listed on the National Register of Historic Places
National Register of Historic Places
The National Register of Historic Places is the United States government's official list of districts, sites, buildings, structures, and objects deemed worthy of preservation...
.
Property
The property includes two contributing resourcesContributing property
In the law regulating historic districts in the United States, a contributing resource or contributing property is any building, structure, or object which adds to the historical integrity or architectural qualities that make the historic district, listed locally or federally, significant...
, the church and its rectory
Rectory
A rectory is the residence, or former residence, of a rector, most often a Christian cleric, but in some cases an academic rector or other person with that title...
. A chapel
Chapel
A chapel is a building used by Christians as a place of fellowship and worship. It may be part of a larger structure or complex, such as a church, college, hospital, palace, prison or funeral home, located on board a military or commercial ship, or it may be an entirely free-standing building,...
that was originally freestanding has been connected to the church.
Church
The church's main facadeFacade
A facade or façade is generally one exterior side of a building, usually, but not always, the front. The word comes from the French language, literally meaning "frontage" or "face"....
faces east, towards the triangle of Orchard, Scofield and Walnut streets at the center of town. Opposite is the village's memorial to the local members of the 124th New York Volunteer Infantry Regiment
124th New York Volunteer Infantry Regiment
The 124th New York Volunteer Infantry Regiment, commonly known as the Orange Blossoms, was a volunteer regiment from Orange County, New York, during the American Civil War. Formed in Goshen during the summer of 1862, The unit was officially mustered into United States Service on September 5, 1862,...
, the "Orange Blossoms", who served with distinction in the Union Army
Union Army
The Union Army was the land force that fought for the Union during the American Civil War. It was also known as the Federal Army, the U.S. Army, the Northern Army and the National Army...
during the Civil War
American Civil War
The American Civil War was a civil war fought in the United States of America. In response to the election of Abraham Lincoln as President of the United States, 11 southern slave states declared their secession from the United States and formed the Confederate States of America ; the other 25...
. The village hall is located kitty-corner to it on Walnut Street.
It is a single-story brick structure with a steeply-pitched
Roof pitch
In building construction, roof pitch is a numerical measure of the steepness of a roof, and a pitched roof is a roof that is steep.The roof's pitch is the measured vertical rise divided by the measured horizontal span, the same thing as what is called "slope" in geometry. Roof pitch is typically...
gable
Gable
A gable is the generally triangular portion of a wall between the edges of a sloping roof. The shape of the gable and how it is detailed depends on the structural system being used and aesthetic concerns. Thus the type of roof enclosing the volume dictates the shape of the gable...
d roof. On the southeast side of the nave
Nave
In Romanesque and Gothic Christian abbey, cathedral basilica and church architecture, the nave is the central approach to the high altar, the main body of the church. "Nave" was probably suggested by the keel shape of its vaulting...
, near the front entrance, is a bell tower
Bell tower
A bell tower is a tower which contains one or more bells, or which is designed to hold bells, even if it has none. In the European tradition, such a tower most commonly serves as part of a church and contains church bells. When attached to a city hall or other civic building, especially in...
with a tall spire
Spire
A spire is a tapering conical or pyramidal structure on the top of a building, particularly a church tower. Etymologically, the word is derived from the Old English word spir, meaning a sprout, shoot, or stalk of grass....
. It and the church's main roof are shingled
Roof shingle
Roof shingles are a roof covering consisting of individual overlapping elements. These elements are typically flat rectangular shapes laid in rows from the bottom edge of the roof up, with each successive higher row overlapping the joints in the row below...
in slate
Slate
Slate is a fine-grained, foliated, homogeneous metamorphic rock derived from an original shale-type sedimentary rock composed of clay or volcanic ash through low-grade regional metamorphism. The result is a foliated rock in which the foliation may not correspond to the original sedimentary layering...
. The walls are reddish-brown brick laid in common bond. The foundation
Foundation (architecture)
A foundation is the lowest and supporting layer of a structure. Foundations are generally divided into two categories: shallow foundations and deep foundations.-Shallow foundations:...
is of locally-quarried brownstone
Brownstone
Brownstone is a brown Triassic or Jurassic sandstone which was once a popular building material. The term is also used in the United States to refer to a terraced house clad in this material.-Types:-Apostle Island brownstone:...
, with a datestone
Datestone
A datestone is typically an embedded stone with the date of engraving and other information carved into it. They are not considered a very reliable source for dating a house, as instances of old houses being destroyed and rebuilt have been reported.Specific locations have often been chosen for...
in the southeast corner.
Three narrow Gothic lancet window
Lancet window
A lancet window is a tall narrow window with a pointed arch at its top. It acquired the "lancet" name from its resemblance to a lance. Instances of this architectural motif are most often found in Gothic and ecclesiastical structures, where they are often placed singly or in pairs.The motif first...
s resting on a brownstone course
Course (architecture)
A course is a continuous horizontal layer of similarly-sized building material one unit high, usually in a wall. The term is almost always used in conjunction with unit masonry such as brick, cut stone, or concrete masonry units .-Styles:...
are evenly spaced across the front, with a roundel
Roundel
A roundel in heraldry is a disc; the term is also commonly used to refer to a type of national insignia used on military aircraft, generally circular in shape and usually comprising concentric rings of different colours.-Heraldry:...
high above. The roofline is marked by a corbel
Corbel
In architecture a corbel is a piece of stone jutting out of a wall to carry any superincumbent weight. A piece of timber projecting in the same way was called a "tassel" or a "bragger". The technique of corbelling, where rows of corbels deeply keyed inside a wall support a projecting wall or...
led cornice
Cornice
Cornice molding is generally any horizontal decorative molding that crowns any building or furniture element: the cornice over a door or window, for instance, or the cornice around the edge of a pedestal. A simple cornice may be formed just with a crown molding.The function of the projecting...
with a metal Latin cross at the gable's apex. The main entrance, at the foot of the bell tower, has double wooden doors, each with a St. Andrew's cross
Saltire
A saltire, or Saint Andrew's Cross, is a heraldic symbol in the form of a diagonal cross or letter ex . Saint Andrew is said to have been martyred on such a cross....
in the lower corner, set in a Gothic arch surrounded with three brick courses. A louver
Louver
A louver or louvre , from the French l'ouvert; "the open one") is a window, blind or shutter with horizontal slats that are angled to admit light and air, but to keep out rain, direct sunshine, and noise...
ed, recessed Gothic arch marks the bell stage of the tower, which then gives way after brief corbels to the spire, topped with another cross.
The four-bay
Bay (architecture)
A bay is a unit of form in architecture. This unit is defined as the zone between the outer edges of an engaged column, pilaster, or post; or within a window frame, doorframe, or vertical 'bas relief' wall form.-Defining elements:...
south face, looking out on Orchard Street, has a pair of lancet windows, similar to but smaller than their counterparts on the front. It is broken by the chapel transept
Transept
For the periodical go to The Transept.A transept is a transverse section, of any building, which lies across the main body of the building. In Christian churches, a transept is an area set crosswise to the nave in a cruciform building in Romanesque and Gothic Christian church architecture...
, where another lancet window was once bricked over. To the west of the transept is the connection to the chapel. On the north side are an identical grouping of windows and a porch
Porch
A porch is external to the walls of the main building proper, but may be enclosed by screen, latticework, broad windows, or other light frame walls extending from the main structure.There are various styles of porches, all of which depend on the architectural tradition of its location...
which provides direct access to the nave. A tall brick chimney
Chimney
A chimney is a structure for venting hot flue gases or smoke from a boiler, stove, furnace or fireplace to the outside atmosphere. Chimneys are typically vertical, or as near as possible to vertical, to ensure that the gases flow smoothly, drawing air into the combustion in what is known as the...
rises from the wall here.
Inside, the sanctuary
Sanctuary
A sanctuary is any place of safety. They may be categorized into human and non-human .- Religious sanctuary :A religious sanctuary can be a sacred place , or a consecrated area of a church or temple around its tabernacle or altar.- Sanctuary as a sacred place :#Sanctuary as a sacred place:#:In...
has the pew
Pew
A pew is a long bench seat or enclosed box used for seating members of a congregation or choir in a church, or sometimes in a courtroom.-Overview:Churches were not commonly furnished with permanent pews before the Protestant Reformation...
s arranged with a center aisle and two side ones along the walls. The ceiling is made of beaded
Bead (woodworking)
A bead is a woodworking decorative treatment applied to various elements of wooden furniture, boxes and other items.A bead is typically a rounded shape cut into a square edge to soften the edge and provide some protection against splitting...
wooden boards that expose the hammerbeam roof
Hammerbeam roof
Hammerbeam roof, in architecture, is the name given to an open timber roof, typical of English Gothic architecture, using short beams projecting from the wall.- Design :...
's truss
Truss
In architecture and structural engineering, a truss is a structure comprising one or more triangular units constructed with straight members whose ends are connected at joints referred to as nodes. External forces and reactions to those forces are considered to act only at the nodes and result in...
es. Chamfer
Chamfer
A chamfer is a beveled edge connecting two surfaces. If the surfaces are at right angles, the chamfer will typically be symmetrical at 45 degrees. A fillet is the rounding off of an interior corner. A rounding of an exterior corner is called a "round" or a "radius"."Chamfer" is a term commonly...
ed wooden posts rise up to it from between the lancet window pairs on either side. A carved wooden altar
Altar
An altar is any structure upon which offerings such as sacrifices are made for religious purposes. Altars are usually found at shrines, and they can be located in temples, churches and other places of worship...
with Gothic motifs sits in front of the lancet windows in the west wall. In the rear are an office and robing room.
The basement is largely unfinished and used for storage. Support functions, such as a kitchen and meeting space, are handled by the rooms of the former chapel.
Rectory
The rectory, an L-shaped two-and-a-half-story brick house, is located just north of the church along Walnut Street. The three-bay front facade extends east from the larger main block in the rear. It features segmented arched windows with brownstone sills and a wooden porch. The foundation is brownstone.Its finishes inside date from the original construction and later renovations. Of note from the latter are the front staircase and architrave
Architrave
An architrave is the lintel or beam that rests on the capitals of the columns. It is an architectural element in Classical architecture.-Classical architecture:...
between the front and rear parlors.
Aesthetics
Like Upjohn and other Episcopal architects designing churches for that faith in the mid-19th century, Babcock was strongly influenced by articles and essays in The Ecclesiologist, a journal published by members of England's Oxford MovementOxford Movement
The Oxford Movement was a movement of High Church Anglicans, eventually developing into Anglo-Catholicism. The movement, whose members were often associated with the University of Oxford, argued for the reinstatement of lost Christian traditions of faith and their inclusion into Anglican liturgy...
, which sought a return to more traditional religious practices in Anglicanism. In architecture that meant the older forms of the English country parish church, many built during the Middle Ages, such as St Michael's Church, Longstanton
St Michael's Church, Longstanton
St Michael's Church, Longstanton, is a redundant Anglican church in the village of Longstanton, Cambridgeshire, England. It has been designated by English Heritage as a Grade II* listed building, and is under the care of the Churches Conservation Trust. The church stands at the south end of...
, which has a similar main block to St. Andrew's.
Babcock's initials are found on many sketches of Upjohn's, including one church with tower in Upjohn's pattern book Rural Architecture that strongly resembles St. Andrew's. Christ Church in Ballston Spa
Ballston Spa, New York
Ballston Spa is a village in Saratoga County, New York, United States. The population was 5,556 at the 2000 census. It is the county seat of Saratoga County. The village is named after Rev. Eliphalet Ball, a Congregationalist clergyman and an early settler. The village lies on the border of two...
, completed by Upjohn's office after he left, also bears a resemblance, although its massing and decoration
Ornament (architecture)
In architecture and decorative art, ornament is a decoration used to embellish parts of a building or object. Large figurative elements such as monumental sculpture and their equivalents in decorative art are excluded from the term; most ornament does not include human figures, and if present they...
are less restrained than Babcock typically was.
For St. Andrew's, he offset the tower to the side, a variation that had become popular with Ecclesiological architects around the mid-19th century. This created a more Picturesque
Picturesque
Picturesque is an aesthetic ideal introduced into English cultural debate in 1782 by William Gilpin in Observations on the River Wye, and Several Parts of South Wales, etc. Relative Chiefly to Picturesque Beauty; made in the Summer of the Year 1770, a practical book which instructed England's...
effect than leaving it in the center. Because of this, and the limitations of the lot
Lot (real estate)
In real estate, a lot or plot is a tract or parcel of land owned or meant to be owned by some owner. A lot is essentially considered a parcel of real property in some countries or immovable property in other countries...
, the church's chancel is on the west end rather than liturgical east as most Ecclesiologist-influenced churches do.
The rectory, completed slightly after the main church, shows more vernacular
Vernacular architecture
Vernacular architecture is a term used to categorize methods of construction which use locally available resources and traditions to address local needs and circumstances. Vernacular architecture tends to evolve over time to reflect the environmental, cultural and historical context in which it...
influences of its day, and those of later renovations. Its main design is Italianate
Italianate architecture
The Italianate style of architecture was a distinct 19th-century phase in the history of Classical architecture. In the Italianate style, the models and architectural vocabulary of 16th-century Italian Renaissance architecture, which had served as inspiration for both Palladianism and...
, but the current porch, rebuilt in the early 20th century, is a Craftsman
American Craftsman
The American Craftsman Style, or the American Arts and Crafts Movement, is an American domestic architectural, interior design, landscape design, applied arts, and decorative arts style and lifestyle philosophy that began in the last years of the 19th century. As a comprehensive design and art...
-style treatment of the original.
History
The St. Andrew's congregation predates its current church building by a century. It was one of three charters in the region obtained in July 1770 by The Rev. John Sayre, sent as a missionaryMissionary
A missionary is a member of a religious group sent into an area to do evangelism or ministries of service, such as education, literacy, social justice, health care and economic development. The word "mission" originates from 1598 when the Jesuits sent members abroad, derived from the Latin...
to the Hudson Valley
Hudson Valley
The Hudson Valley comprises the valley of the Hudson River and its adjacent communities in New York State, United States, from northern Westchester County northward to the cities of Albany and Troy.-History:...
from London. After the Revolution
American Revolution
The American Revolution was the political upheaval during the last half of the 18th century in which thirteen colonies in North America joined together to break free from the British Empire, combining to become the United States of America...
, it shared its rector with St. George's in nearby Newburgh
Newburgh (city), New York
Newburgh is a city located in Orange County, New York, United States, north of New York City, and south of Albany, on the Hudson River. Newburgh is a principal city of the Poughkeepsie-Newburgh-Middletown metropolitan area, which includes all of Dutchess and Orange counties. The Newburgh area was...
.
Congregants had moved from a primitive log cabin
Log cabin
A log cabin is a house built from logs. It is a fairly simple type of log house. A distinction should be drawn between the traditional meanings of "log cabin" and "log house." Historically most "Log cabins" were a simple one- or 1½-story structures, somewhat impermanent, and less finished or less...
to a more permanent meetinghouse as the church grew, and in 1826 they decided to build a larger one in Walden, at the time an unincorporated preindustrial hamlet known mainly for its mill on the Wallkill River
Wallkill River
The Wallkill River, a tributary of the Hudson, drains Lake Mohawk in Sparta, New Jersey, flowing from there generally northeasterly to Rondout Creek in New York, near Rosendale, with the combined flows reaching the Hudson at Kingston....
. It was finished and consecrated
Consecration
Consecration is the solemn dedication to a special purpose or service, usually religious. The word "consecration" literally means "to associate with the sacred". Persons, places, or things can be consecrated, and the term is used in various ways by different groups...
in September 1827.
After the Civil War
American Civil War
The American Civil War was a civil war fought in the United States of America. In response to the election of Abraham Lincoln as President of the United States, 11 southern slave states declared their secession from the United States and formed the Confederate States of America ; the other 25...
, the church needed to expand again. It bought the current lot in 1871 from William Scofield, after whom a nearby street is named, for $800 ($ in 2009 dollars). Babcock, at the time transitioning from his position as rector of St. James' Church in Arden
Arden, New York
Arden, is a hamlet around the town line of Tuxedo and Monroe, New York, in the United States. It is roughly coterminous with the 10910 ZIP Code....
to the first professor at what is now Cornell University
Cornell University
Cornell University is an Ivy League university located in Ithaca, New York, United States. It is a private land-grant university, receiving annual funding from the State of New York for certain educational missions...
's College of Architecture, Art, and Planning
Cornell University College of Architecture, Art, and Planning
The College of Architecture, Art, and Planning at Cornell University was established in 1871 as the School of Architecture with the hiring of Charles Babcock as the first Professor creating the first four-year course of study in architecture in the United States...
, delivered plans and construction documents before leaving for Ithaca. Local contractors using local materials were hired, and the church was finished later that year. The debt incurred by the construction was enough that it took until 1880 to pay off, and only then was the church formally consecrated.
The rectory was built the following year. In 1884 the congregation decided to accommodate continuing growth by building the chapel on the western end of the lot. At the turn of the century the oil lamp
Oil lamp
An oil lamp is an object used to produce light continuously for a period of time using an oil-based fuel source. The use of oil lamps began thousands of years ago and is continued to this day....
s that had originally lit the church's sanctuary were replaced with electric models, and in 1915 the rectory received its remodeled porch and some changes to the interior, such as the rear parlor fireplace
Fireplace
A fireplace is an architectural structure to contain a fire for heating and, especially historically, for cooking. A fire is contained in a firebox or firepit; a chimney or other flue allows gas and particulate exhaust to escape...
.
Eventually the congregation decided to combine the chapel and church into one large building. This began in 1924 with a simple hyphen, and culminated 15 years later with the current linkage and its accompanying changes to the chapel's fenestration
Window
A window is a transparent or translucent opening in a wall or door that allows the passage of light and, if not closed or sealed, air and sound. Windows are usually glazed or covered in some other transparent or translucent material like float glass. Windows are held in place by frames, which...
. The church and rectory have remained intact since that time.