xxxx
Dawn

Andrew,

"So what is it we need, 240 million people with a different idea about everything? That will fix things won't it? The minority has to bend their minds into the majority. This is your elected President. Even when I hated G. Bush-Cheney, I would still recognize them as an authority over me even as his majority was always in question."

you recognize authority over you? You think that the president or anyone else has authority over YOU?

you think that so many voices are too many? who decides which voices should be heard and which should be kept silent?

who is the minority?
who is the majority?

do you realize that it was the centrist movement, the independents, who got him elected? that his BASE is liberal left but the actual voters were centrist conservative/liberal?
do you realize that the tea party movement is dominated by centrists now?
if you don't believe that, go to freedomworks.com and ask around. You will not find many conservatives. We are unimpressed by the conservative effort to get cheney and gingrinch back into power. The bulk of us want new fresh blood and are working very hard to see that new candidates are not financed by old money.

Andrew, how much do you actually know about the things you are protesting, or seem to be protesting, against?

Dawn

Well, yes, the President has authority over me. He is the commander in chief of the Armed Forces and has enough power to veto and/or influence the laws in this country. Thats more power than I have or will ever have.

As far as who decides which voices should be heard and which should not -- it has no answer. What I mean is that people of this country need to show some self-imposed restraint, or self-compromise, otherwise, this so-called democracy is going to collapse because of all these forces pulling at it from all directions. It will factionalize.

I fully recognize the independents (as well as disillustioned Repbulicans) got Obama elected. The tea party people have not changed any of their ideas, they are just keeping it low because their ideas are eccentric and far from the majority. Thats what S. Palin's play is - to bring them into the Repbulican party by toning them down a little. But the reality is that it does not make them more centrist. Only apparently centrist.

You got new blood when you voted for Obama. And he is doing well as a President. He deserves more credit than most people are willing to give him. You would have done a lot worse before you could have done better.

Did I answer all your questions.

regards,

I think you are confused about Socialism. Look at what Sweden has done. All schools are free from K to phd and beyond. But the poeple pay 50% of their income for it. But there is no reason that a person does not have an opportunity to go to school and learn something. If they stil did not like Socialism, they could easily immigrate to any country they wanted to. The education is a free ticket to anywhere.

In democracy, you can only go if you can afford it or win a scholarship that pays all. The latter are very rare unless you are a sports star.

So, there can be some advantages.

regards,

First let me say, no one has power over YOU. I realize you don't fully grasp this concept but I will keep repeating it until you pay attention to what I'm saying.

By saying Obama as president has power over you because he has the power of his office and the combined might of the United States behind him, you reveal a choice you have made. You have chosen to relinquish freedom in favor of being ruled. This is why you feel that entitlement programs and redistribution of wealth is a good thing, a natural thing, that such policies will lead to a better world. For someone who has relinquished freedom of Self, this is true. You require outside help to make your world livable.

You say that we need to show some self restraint and self compromise or else democracy will fall as we know it.
okay, democracy and democratic nature is all about lack of self restraint and lack of compromise. It is about the WILL of the people not the WILLINGNESS of the people. Democracy fails when people fail to have WILL and succumb to WILLINGNESS.

there are many people who have made the same choice you have. They choose to be ruled instead of ruling themselves. They do not require democracy. They require leadership.

When I voted for this man, I heard him telling me he would not just lead, he would listen to the will of the people and do what they wanted him to do. Instead of doing that, he became a leader and demanded that I follow him because he knew best.

political correctness in our media has short circuited democracy by letting the chaos vote without the governance of laws or the guidance of the principles that our country is founded upon. The really neat trick that is being played now is the use of peoples natural tendency towards fairness to color the voting in the shiny armor of goodness. This president rules and leads from the morality of opinion.

there have been may studies about natural fairness and altruism and it has been proven it only exists when people fear being judged. If people following Obama are being fair, who are they afraid will judge them?
Who will judge you Andrew? Who will tell you; you did good?
the tea party?
Sara Palin?
Obama?
sure, I told you that...but what I think about you doesn't matter...or it shouldn't matter.
and, I suspect, you thought I was being sarcastic when I said it to you anyway....


Dawn

Well said!
So many people have been fooled over the years to believe that the office of the president belongs to the president and once there he/she becomes immune to all the laws of the land and can do whatever he/she wants and that is absolutely not the case! The office of the president belongs to the people and it is a honor and a privilege for a man or a woman to hold that office...if an elected president goes beyond the constitutional duties of that office then that person should be removed!

Here is an analogy...

Think of the United States (we the people) as the share holders of a large corporation, the owners, as it were, and the president in this case would be the chief executive officer...the CEO in every large corporation manages the affairs of the business for the share holders and must answer to the share holders and be held accountable for his/her actions taking care that decisions are made that conform to the wishes of the 'owners' not the personal desires of the CEO...this is where the whole system has failed because Obama believes that what ever action he takes does not require the consent of the people there fore he has in one way committed a hostile take over of the corporation and has told the share holders to sit down and shut up......the share holders of a corporation can 'fire' the CEO and we the people can impeach our president...he deserves that at minimum and probably criminal prosecution at most...

James...

If you want to 'give' half of your hard earned money to the government to get what they decide you can or can not have, then by all means, move to Sweden...at least there is some really beautiful scenery to take your mind off your being a slave...

What I see happening is that everybody thinks they we (Americans) have the right to criticize everything we think is wrong. My way (and I might be an outlier) is that I present my case, they present theirs, somebody wins and somebody loses. If I lose, I accept it and continue living within the system.

As an example of the kind of power the President has over you (people in general) is that he can put a gun in my hand and tell me to shoot all the rag heads I can find in Iraq. Even if I don't agree with it, I am forced to do it or play the consciencious objector card, which is difficult for my un-religious self.

But the problem I see is 240 million people all wanting something different. And they continue to express their opinions with the use of curse words and insults to make their point of view more emphatic, but not however, more convincing. You saw that at the town hall meetings against the Health Care bill.

I see a political schism forming driven by the ultra right and ultra (green, choice, no guns) left. I see these 2 groups gaining in popularity further polarizing the political arena. Where it ends is unpredictable.

Thats what I was trying to say. By the way, when you said I did good, I took it as a compliment.

regards,

I never said the President was above the law. He is not as evidenced by the resignation of Nixon, or the impeachment of Clinton (which I did not agree with because the accusers all had mistresses).

Anyway, your conlusion that Obama is guilty of criminal acts has no backup. So, your accusation is baseless (again).

regards,

Your logic is so screwed up...Clinton committed felony perjury by deliberately lying to congress
and Obama only lied to every single person in the United States...you are just going to support a democrat no matter what, right or wrong...not an accusation young fellow, fact!
Again your head is so far up your pa-toot you would not know the facts if they fell on your head...you are a sheep!

James, you are so righteous it makes me roll on the floor. So, Clinton had a little mistress, so did all of those righteous Republicans that were impeaching him. Finally Gingreich stepped down and Livingstone from La offered to take his place. It turned out that Livingstone was making payment to a love child he fathered.

You have again asserted that Obama has lied to the American public but you haven't proved it. You haven't even told us what the lie was. However, I find your creative ability to make new insults by combining new words interesting but again, not convincing.

regards,

Basically your problem is that you refuse to open your eyes and see what is right in front of your face...this is not my opinion or what I think, the facts are that Obama ran a presidential campaign of promise of change and no new taxes...yeah right...he has done a 180 on every single issue that he swore/lied he would do to make change in this country...I am not a republican or a democrat, they are both completely corrupt equally and Obama is just another lying politician and he isn't even any good at it. Every one knew that Clinton couldn't control his pecker, he had that problem when the governor of Arkansas. The fact is the SOB appeared on national TV and swore that he did not have sexual relations with that woman...he lied to congress...he perjured himself!
You worship a president that is selling your ass down the river and you love it! He swore that his administration would be transparent about this Obamacare...behind closed doors! Liar and unworthy of the office he lied to get. Sheep!

If the most important thing to you is that Clinton had an affair and lied about it, so should we believe that you are a total angelic individual that would never have do anything like that. And you are totally appalled by the whole thing. Actually he was a reasonably good President. (however, he was partially responsible for the economic downturn that has occurred) Under him, we had a lot of prosperity, a zero deficit, and someone that could handle the foreign affairs. So what if he had an affair. In France, it is well known that the previous Prime Minister had a mistress and she was pregnant. The French handled it like a normal thing, they didn't think he should be impeached over it.

In the case of Obama, yes, he promised change, but even the President is helpless against the total system of lobbyists, partisan politics, and other special interest groups. He did however, say that anybody that quits government can't simply go to work for a lobbyist group at 2X salary. That was change. In his campaign he promised change but then he inherited an economy that required full, 100% attention and had to change his priorities. So what else do you feel you were lied to about? Tell us.

regards,

Rubbish!! Just like an extreme liberal to side step the criminal act of Clinton and evade the real issue! I could care less where Clinton put his Willie...he lied under oath to the congress of the United States and that is a felony punishable by imprisonment in this country, I dare you to do it and if you did, you would not get off scott free as he did!! He committed a crime and more has come to light about all the secret dealings of the Clinton administration concerning Waco...

Clinton did nothing good for this country what so ever! You idolize these men as though they are Gods...they are fallible flesh and blood and corrupt to the core...and why the hell would I give a damn if the French believe that Clinton should not have been impeached? What do the French or any other country have to do with the affairs of this nation...voice their opinion as they freely may and mind your own damn business, that is what I have for the French!

Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama...same old crap and lies and now the government is so massive that one day soon what I or you think or say will not matter because these mad men will destroy all our freedoms! Mine and yours! You defend the acts of these men and you choose your side...Obama is the way of folly and arrogant fools!

You follow your Obama, he is not my President, he will fail you!

I, for one, perhaps the only one and that's fine by me but regrettable, care a great deal about the morals of the people who presume to lead.
I cared about where Clinton put his D****. He swore to uphold the values and laws of this country. It maybe legal to pork a fat chick while in office, but it ain't valuable. The act revealed him as a mere man, not a great leader. Yes, his presidency was..okay, but he will never be great because he wasn't up to par.
Do I think it was impeachment worthy...no. That was just another media charade. I didn't pay any attention to it and anyone who did should be ashamed.

as for the current man in office...look, I know it is accepted that politicians say things 'on the stump' that are just smoke and mirrors. I get it, I really do and, you know what, it would be ugly but reasonable to find out Obama did it too...just another mere man aspiring to greatness and never achieving it.

but, what he said on the campaign was more than a 'stump promise'...it FIRED people up. YES WE CAN CHANGE THE WORLD!
oh, yes, I want that so badly...so very very badly.
and I believe we CAN change the world
but, not as a collective, not by taking from one group and giving it to another...THAT IS THE WORLD I WANT TO CHANGE!


and Andrew, there is no draft hon. No one can put a gun in your hand and make you shoot it.
as far as drowning in the chaos and nothing getting done because of it...you are absolutely correct. In saying this, I think I understand a little bit why you are sticking with the president...he IS cutting through the chaos rather adroitly, I'll give him that.

Andrew, you have to look ahead and look carefully. I know the ideas I represent are obstructionist to the ideas you have but I have an excellent reason for trying to put the brakes on this particular train.
Its headed for a cliff and pulling the world along behind it.

If this doesn't stop, the money will be gone and America will go from its knees to its face. When its lying on its face, the Muslims are going to come along and cut its head off.

Iran, nukes, South America, no inter continental guidance required, army on the border in the SW, police state ready to go,
and racial unrest simmering in our cities
we are one major riot away from martial law and if that happens
not one word any of us have typed here will matter.
LOOK Andrew. I'm not lying to you and I'm not insane. I know you don't want to let go of the dream but its time to wake up.

Dawn

I got news for you, what we think and say does not matter even today. Don't you see what happens? You elect someone based on the issues of the campaign. Those issues are like, "Right to Life", "Right to Guns", "No Offshore Drilling", "Lower Taxes (for business you get trickle down)", what else, you know them all. So you listen, and you vote.

None of these issues are what the good senator works on. Yeah, you get what you wanted, probably, and since you are probably a serious Christian, (can't stand Clinton's mistress he lied about) you also want them all to be celebate. Ok, you got it this time around.

Now, the senator you elected goes to Wash DC and he spends a little time on what he promised you. But he spends a lot more time with CEOs of investment banks and HUD Secretary person and others to try to find some way to put poor people into houses so the banks can have more sub prime mortgages. We knew nothing about that when we elected them. We didn't want them to disregard the normal fiduciary practices of the past and give a mortgage to my pet dog. But that is what they did. Thats where the money is my friend. Money? Yes, Billions. In fact 1.2 Trillion dollars of sub-prime mortgages. More than that, one of the perpetrators of that is now the Secretary of the Treasury. Figure that one.

You don't live in a democracy. You never did. Yes, they allow you to voice your opinion as loud as you want. But it just goes by the wayside. You're still allowed to do it without reprisal. You wouldn't get away with it in most other countries, so they are not "democracies".

Next time you see a politician on TV and somebody asks him a pointed question, you can watch him talk about the subject up and down, sideways and this way until you foget what it was you asked him. Which he never answered. Now try to extrapolate all this to where its gonna lead.

We need more say in what these elected and appointed officials do. Especially the things they do that were not part of the campaign. We have to be in there somehow.

Nobody likes long answers so I will leave this one here.

regards,

A few comments on the above thread:

1. When the US deposes dictatorships as in iraq, and replaces it with a democracy, it's a contradiction in terms to say we are "dictating" to a people. It's PRECISELY the opposite - we removed a dictatorship, those who "dictate", and put the power in the hands of the PEOPLE - nobody is dictating to them now.

2. It's silly to say that war was "about oil" - saddam hussein was always happy to sell the US oil - he needed money for his arms purchases and palaces. Oil production has never reached pre-war production levels, and the iraqis are even awarding oil construction contracts and such to non-american firms.

Ok, but why was Iraq singled out as the country to replace their dictatorship with a democracy? Again, we elected Bush-Cheney based on the issues of the campaign which this war was not one of, but its still a big issue. Cheney had no evidence that Iraq was accumulating weapons of mass destruction but went in to attack them anyway.

The government has too much power to interpret what they will do and not do whether we want it, whether its good for us, or whether it does neither.

The war in Iraq gave the government license to spend money on war things, and a lot of people make money on that. That is what I think the motive for it was. Nothing else seems to make sense but I'm open to anything.

regards,

Sure, we leave behind a democracy which is the weakest form of government known to man. We DON'T help them build a REPUBLIC.

It IS about oil it is also about what we leave behind.

Folks need to wake up to the concept that America is transitioning from a republic to an empire and what we are doing in the mideast is empire building.

Andrew doesn't like long posts so I'll leave it with that.

Dawn

We are always empire building. We want as many allies as possible. Especially if they have oil, also, gold, copper, platinum, is good.

But China is also empire building. They have already cornered the market in copper and many other minerals. So what, we don't go to physical war anymore, its now a war of economics and influence.

Did you get the book I told you about? If not, I can send you mine. Write to me at dollarsin99@gmail.com and I will send it to you.

regards,

Andrew

okay, I haven't read the book yet. I really must make hay while the season is high and am nursing no fewer than three manuscripts along at this point.I swear I will look it up on library day, next Tuesday but I will email you so we can argue in private and spare the readers' the angst.

Dawn

I do apologize for the long time between the comments...I have seriously been away on some very personal matters...
I have re-read this string and I can see that you have ample knowledge about the current events in our modern world and you are by no means stupid...just suppose for a moment that the people of Iraq did not want the Bush war machine in side their country, just suppose that the people of Iraq had a democratic voice in the decision that led up to the American invasion..they were given no choice or even an ultimatum...it just happened and more than one million are now dead...

My questions are to you: If democracy is what the world is told is what has happened in Iraq, how can anyone justify the use of forbidden munitions such as depleted uranium and white phosphorus in the invasion? Did the US military violate the rules of war? Did the US Army Torture? Did helicopters rip innocent people to pieces with machine gun fire and run over their dead bodies with military vehicles?

More innocent men, women, and children died in Iraq than the supposed target...this is fact...

The United States Military under the Bush and Obama administrations have caused more suffering in that once sovereign land than many Husein's put together...we had no business interfering in the the lives of so many innocent people! The United States has no business interfering in the affairs of any nation...it is outside the charter of the our constitution to invade another country!

Abraham Lincoln warned this country along time ago..."allow a president to invade a neighboring nation, when ever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion and you allow him to do so whenever he deems it necessary for such a purpose and you will allow him to make war at pleasure..."

I guess Andrew isn't talking anymore but I would like to say that I don't blame the military for any of this James and you shouldn't either. I was in the military and let me tell you, those people follow orders. They aren't paid to think, that's the point. It takes a lot of training and commitment to get people who act and don't think. LIbs make fun of that but soldiers are rightly proud of it. It takes more faith to do their job than the Pope has on Wednesdays.(that's a joke)

If there is blame to be had in Iraq then it should lie on the shoulders of the Washington politicians and the Joint Chiefs...but even the Chiefs do the bidding of one man

Because Islamic countries need someone to keep them in line.

Oh please.... so who's gonna keep the United States in line all Islamic countries have their own leader, the United States have the highest rapes, drug addicts, murders, road fatalities, prostitutes and have committed the most terrorist acts so who needs to keep who in line....the most ridiculous answer.

That's because I was being sarcastic, genius. I like to piss off anybody that takes themselves and their prejudices too seriously. The mere wording of the question proved that you have an agenda and aren't interested in an intelligent debate. You just want to post your biased brainwashed opinion. Which is fine; that's one of the many things great about this country. Its not like its run by extremist Muslims. That's a right that this country gives you. But don't get uppity when you get called out.

And don't give me that tired old bullshit argument about Muslims defending their homeland and not being terrorists and that the US is the real terrorist state. Come up with something intelligent and original, not mindless rhetoric that's been drilled into your head.

OK..road fatalities?! Prostitutes?! Seriously?! What, are you arguing the MORALITY of
Islamic countries is higher than the morality of the US? When you argue in favor of terrorists you have already lost the moral high ground. Oh I get it.. another tired old argument about how the US is a corrupt nation with too much power blah blah blah. Sounds to me like you and your ilk are just jealous and frustrated that we are still a super power and you are all just a bunch of small insignificant states that can't just do what you want, when you want. Well its not going to happen. Like the complete and total destruction of Israel... now THERE is a MORAL and JUST cause championed by murderers of innocent civilians, women and children. Don't get me started. You're going to lose.

We may not be blameless (NO country is) but we have a hell of a much better claim to the moral side of things than YOURS do. We are the bully on the block. Deal with it. We're bigger and stronger than you. You want to take us down? Do it the way an honest, smaller person would. Come at the bully in a fair fight. Don't go to his sister's house, knock on the door, and when she unsuspectingly opens the door, knife her to death and run away.
That's the way of the dog, a coward.

Honestly, I don't support this country getting involved in so much overseas. I think we are wasting our resources cleaning up other people's trash. We should be allocating more funds and manpower to helping other countries in areas like food relief for the starving people around the world, helping Haiti rebuild...causes that are truly worthy of this nation's ideals and principles. Not rolling around in the sand and dirt taking potshots at fanatics that don't know their ass from a hole in the sand.

Which, by the way, is where you all belong.

I knew you would co me and justify what the United States do you're one of those proud to be American crack heads who think prostitutions and gays are ok and I'm glad to hear you admit you all are just bullies, you shouldn't care what Muslims do or don't do and also let me put this to you I don't praise anyone for the wrongs they do weather its Muslim Jew Christians. Thats what makes me different from you

The whole of my discussion was understand why Muslims are being treated unfairly by Americans and its simply this they don't do what you guys do and they have very strict rules and laws... I don't back down from anything, I have alot of friends who aren't Muslim and we all interact and go out and have fun like any normal human being and as you say we are all human beings. You are correct when you say I will never praise Christians, jews or even Muslim for that matter because all praise is due to the creator that created life as I know it. Osama Bin Laden I am not a fan of as in the Quran say enjoin in the right and forbid the wrong and clearly what he did was wrong.

I agree that the United States have done alot of good things for some countries that's because you guys are so guilty of terrorists attacks, the very land you guys said you discovered were already discovered by Indians their were people living their and you slaughtered them because you didn't like their ways or what you thought they were babe
rick, how can you discover something that's already owned by someone else, how would you like if I came to your home killed your family and said I discovered the house..lol.. you guys are so fricken crazy.

Never did I say what all Muslims do are fine and dandy, I have never met an American that was nice to me I would be treated worse if I was to wear a vial, just not to cause any problems we have simmer down because if we want to follow the Qua ran and and dress as ought to it will cause problems and yes the population the the government and the country on the whole treats us that way and if you want to be naive about that you might be one out of a hundred that thinks that way.

OK.....now I think we are getting somewhere.

I will be the first to admit that some Americans have a very poor attitude towards Muslims in general. I know that to be a fact, because I have seen it with my own eyes.
Honestly, do you know how that makes me feel? It angers me and embarrasses me that these people are in my country. They are ignorant, prejudiced, and just plain stupid.

I am also glad that you agree that what Bin Laden did was wrong. I KNOW that he was not representative of who and what most Muslims are. I personally think that it is disgraceful that he used the Islamic religion to justify his actions. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people( in this country and others) that don't have the intelligence to separate him from the majority of Muslims. Which I am sure is what he wanted to achieve.

You are right when you say that if you wanted to openly practice your religion here there would be bigotry and prejudice and that some people WOULD cause problems because they are stupid and ignorant. But not all of us are like that! Not the ones that are worth you becoming friends with. It makes me angry to hear that you have never met an American that has ever treated you nicely. I believe it, and am sorry for that. I can certainly understand your feelings of bitterness towards them. I am sure that if I was in your place, I would feel the same way. But what I CAN tell you is that simply to say and think that we are ALL like that is unfair, because it is not true. As for the government's position, I can say that the present Obama administration is a LOT more respectful of Muslims than that idiotic, criminal Bush administration ever was. Yes, the Bush administration WAS criminal. And it wasn't just what they did in Islamic countries! He and his friends blatantly broke law after law in THIS country, and what happened? Hardly any of them paid any kind of price. It is outrageous.

Now, as for the Indian argument, I can't speak to that personally. I am a second generation American. My parents were born here, but both sets of my grandparents came from Greece. So that was before OUR time. But as for the way the government treated the native Americans, I personally don't agree with it. But that is not the reason we have done good things. Past governments in this country and others simply believed in order to keep world peace we must work together for everybody's sake. That we should lead by example. Of course, it hasn't always worked that way. Unfortunately.

I want to thank you for your honesty and your understanding and wish I could talk to you on a different basis, you seem like a person with alot of understanding and you might be one of those I could talk to without being judged or ill-treated.

I feel the same way. I'd like to keep in touch.

I don't mind posting my email here for you.

anthonysvokos@yahoo.com


Write me whenever you want to!

Tony

I wonder how the hero's of our past handled these wars/
visit my blog @ www.chelochat.blogspot.com