Im a new member myself, but by looking around on the site, I think us post-tribbers are safe. It seems everything is talked about.

"Will I be excommunicated for discussing, practicing, and making references to the PostTribulaton Rapture as being fact."

>What religious affiliation do you attend?

>If you tell me I can answer

>I have over 30 years of experience in the study and teaching of the prophetic scriptures and understand related positions of most all theological persuasions of professing christianity

>I believe the scriptures support a pre-tribulation immortilization of the church hands down, but I don't judge anyone on the basis of their views

Stephen

>I believe the scriptures support a pre-tribulation immortilization of the church hands down, but I don't judge anyone on the basis of their views

I have studied the end times and the rapture for a while as well. I don't get heated or mean when I discuss these things. I have asked every pre-trib person I could for the scriptures that conclusively teaches a pre-trib rapture. I used to be a pre-trib and I knew of most of the verses. But I have been given Rev3:10, Rev4:1, Rom5:9, 1Thes1:10, 1Thes4:15, and the examples of Lot and Noah. Those are the ones I can think of. None of those are conclusive. At best they are full of assumptions, but everyone of them are fairly easy to prove that they have nothing to do with the rapture, or if they do, they are easy to prove they have nothing to do with a pre-trib rapture. If you have other verses or Biblical examples, I would really appreciate them.

On the other hand, Matt24:29-41, Mark13:24-27, Rev14:9-15:1, Matt13:24-43, Rev20:4-6, Matt25:1-12, 1Cor15:12-24, 1Cor15:51-53, 1Thes3:14, 1Thes4:14-17 and 2Thes2:1-4 all teach a post-trib rapture and the teachings are conclusive in these verses. If all these verses are not post-trib, then each one has to be explained and reconciled to the pre-trib theory. Usually, pre-tribs try to say that there are two comings to the 2nd coming. That, in itself, is a contradiction. If there are two comings in the 2nd coming, then there are 3 comings. And nobody teaches that, because we are looking for His next coming to the Mount of Olives.

Needemp,

I would suggest the following:

2Thessalonians 2:1 is the "rapture" [the gathering] ..... the day of the Lord is the beginning of the tribulation period .... two different events

These early believers were concerned that they had missed the Lord's calling for them, or that it was not going to happen

Paul sets them straight and tells them that the day of the Lord had not yet begun .... the necessary conditions were not present

The proof of the immortal pre-tribulation church is given in the following verses contained in Revelation [those in heaven with the Lord just before, during, and after the tribulation period]:

[Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:5-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:11-14; 20:4 (those on thrones)]

Revelation is a series of repeating visions of various themes given as the narrative moves forward ... for example; 4:4; 5:5-10 and 19:1-9 is a view of the immortal church in heaven just before the Lord's hour [time] of trial begins on the earth

Revelation is not structured in linear chronological time lapse ... but in theme segments that cover the tribulation period which will last for 2550 days

The first trumpet sounding for the church is given in Revelation 1:10 [this is the Lord speaking to the church at its inception .... the last trumpet sounding for the church is given in 1Corinthians 15:22-58 and 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 [this is the Lord calling the church out just before His coming hour [time] of trial and testing of an unbelieving world]

The removal of the 6 seals of the scroll must take place before the tribulation period can begin .... each seal is a portent and preview of the prevalent conditions that will exist on the earth .... not the events themselves which begin in chapter 8 .... the 7th is a condition in heaven just before the tribulation begins on the earth

The 7 trumpet soundings of Revelation are judgment trumpets [not resurrections], the first 6 will sound in rapid fire sequence at the beginning of the tribulation setting the conditions of the period

7th trumpet of Revelation is a judgment trumpet and will sound toward the end of the period bringing the Lord's judgment upon the beast and his followers culminating at Armageddon .... this trumpet sounding is not a resurrection trumpet

The trumpet sounding just after the tribulation period in Matthew 24:29-31 is a gathering trumpet of surviving mortals who will enter and populate the Lord's millennial kingdom on the earth .... this gathering is not a resurrection

There will be those who will become believers during the tribulation period and martyred .... these will have to wait until the end of the period for their resurrection [Revelation 6:9-11; 14:13 15:2-3; 20:4 (those beheaded)]

Stephen

-Thanks for responding. I did make the statement that all the post-trib verses I gave you had to be reconciled and dealt with. They MUST be explained away and proved that they are not post-trib verses.

Most pre-tribs usually use what is called "rescuing devices" to defend their beliefs. It is important that we use the Bible and only the Bible. I know everyone says that, but it is mostly a cliche. It is not a cliche to me.

Evolutionists use rescuing devices all the time. (arguments that run around in circles, but don't deal with the actual points. They are a matter of reaching a conclusion to support one's belief system.) A Biblical rescuing point is usually when someone believes something no matter what scripture says, and they will reason till they have what they think is logical and supports their view. It is a device that uses a lot of extra-biblical words, theories and paraphrasing of Bible verses, but truly ignores the actual doctrine or the context of the verses.

I gave very specific post-trib verses to you and they were all ignored. That tells me that you probably didn't even check them out.

If you CAN NOT reconcile the post-trib verses I gave, then we will end up talking in circles over and over. I don't like waisting time outside of the Bible. Case-in-point, I will deal with everything you gave me in your response, but most of it, however, does not deal with Bible verses. I will not ignore or skip over any of it. But If your next response does not deal with the verses that I believe conclusively teach a post-trib rapture, I will have to end our conversation. Like I said, I don't like waisting my time.

In case you don't know what I mean by a rescuing device, let me give you specific, apparent examples you used:

1) You did not concentrate on any of the verses I gave you. ALL of them need to be explained and reconciled on your part. If they can't be dealt with from scripture only, then we will get nowhere. My mind can absolutely be changed with proof. If yours can not, then we are waisting time. Not dealing with them is in itself, a rescuing device.

2) To say in 2Thes2:1 that the rapture and the day of the Lord or at the beginning of the trib is an assumption. Where in the Bible does it ABSOLUTELY teach that. I have looked both when I was a pre-trib and after I became a post-trib. It does not teach that concretely at all. And concretely is what we need to be sure. This is a rescuing device!

3) The statement about the early believers and Paul that you made makes no sense to our discussion. This may not qualify as a rescuing device, but it might be a poor attempt at one. It seems more like clutter than anything that supports a pre-trib rapture.

BTW, I will deal with your verses from Revelation during another post, because they are the closest things to any possible evidence you provided.

4)I have to ask you to prove it when you say that Revelation "is not structured in linear chronological time lapse ... but in theme segments that cover the tribulation period which will last for 2550 days". I have studied the days in Daniel (especially Dan12) and in Revelation and I think there are some extra-Biblical assumptions taking place in your theory. But nonetheless, I will give you a chance to prove it, otherwise it is just another rescuing attempt.

5)Your statement "The first trumpet sounding for the church is given in Revelation 1:10 [this is the Lord speaking to the church at its inception" is a classic case of a rescuing device. WOW! This tells me how you interpret scripture! To say that is 110% assumption based on nothing. All John heard was a voice that sounded as a trumpet. To say that it is "the inception of the church" is ludicrous. You can not add to scripture what is not there. Rev22 has some nasty things to say about that. If I am wrong, please prove it with other scriptures. I will apologize if you do.

Besides, I think we have good examples of trumpets that are blown. They are referred to as the 7 trumpets in Rev.

6)Your statement- "1Corinthians 15:22-58 and 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 [this is the Lord calling the church out just before His coming hour [time] of trial and testing of an unbelieving world]"

I read ICor15, and I can expose your rescuing device here. vs23 says "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." It says "at His coming". You ADD in your statement "[at his coming] hour of trial and testing of an unbelieving world". You can not add things that are not there. It does not say or imply at His coming hour of trial and testing in this verse. Only at His coming, period!

Look at the passage, "We are all made alive" (vs22), "they that are Christ's at his coming" (vs23), and "then cometh the end" (vs24). This passage is totally true if there is a post-trib rapture. But you add to it to make a rescuing device that supports your belief. None of the rest of 1Cor15 says or implies what you insisted.

1Thes4:13-18 is the same thing. It does not teach or imply that anyone is raptured before "His coming hour [time] of trial and testing of an unbelieving world]". But it does, however, support that the rapture could happen at the 2nd coming of Christ on the Mt of Olives, AFTER the trib period. (Last trump, 7th trump, at the end of the world)

You used both of these passages out of context.

7)Your statement- "The removal of the 6 seals of the scroll must take place before the tribulation period can begin .... each seal is a portent and preview of the prevalent conditions that will exist on the earth .... not the events themselves which begin in chapter 8 .... the 7th is a condition in heaven just before the tribulation begins on the earth" I don't even think this is an assumption on your part, but rather a dishonest fabrication. I don't mean to be harsh, but where in the world does anyone get that? Extra-Biblical additions are used as rescuing devices and so it is in this case.

8) Your explanation of the 7th trumpet is all speculative. I am a little weary from typing, so I leave it up to you to give ACTUAL Bible verses teaching everything you said about the 7th trumpet: them as judgments, them as "rapid fire sequence at the beginning of the tribulation setting the conditions of the period", them as sounding "toward the end of the period bringing the Lord's judgment upon the beast and his followers culminating at Armageddon", and you need to prove that the 7th trumpet is not the same trumpet that is in Matt24.

9)Your statement- "The trumpet sounding just after the tribulation period in Matthew 24:29-31...this gathering is not a resurrection" Prove it from the Bible. Use scripture to prove this! You can't do it. It certainly DOES NOT say in Matt24 that the resurrection is NOT included. 1Cor15:52 absolutely includes the resurrection with the "gathering" "at the last trump"! What Biblical proof do you have that says 1Cor15:52 and Matt24 are two separate events? The only conclusion that can be formed is that they are part of the ONLY rapture (or gathering) that takes place. Another rescuing device used without any Biblical backing.

10)Your statement- "There will be those who will become believers during the tribulation period and martyred .... these will have to wait until the end of the period for their resurrection [Revelation 6:9-11; 14:13 15:2-3; 20:4 (those beheaded)]" This is a very true statement. But notice that you didn't mention any suggestion indicating that there was a rapture or a resurrection BEFORE those trib saints are martyred or before the trib period itself. Who do you think those trib-saints are? They are us!

Every verse you listed here I looked up, (Revelation 6:9-11; 14:13 15:2-3; 20:4). None of them prove or disprove a pre-trib or a post-trib rapture. They have nothing to do with the timeline of the rapture. Again, this was a weak attempt to give a rescuing device trying to prove your pre-trib view. Only problem was that it didn't deal with when or who exactly was involved.

I will deal with your statement "The proof of the immortal pre-tribulation church is given in the following verses contained in Revelation [those in heaven with the Lord just before, during, and after the tribulation period] [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:5-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:11-14; 20:4 (those on thrones)]" soon in another post.


Well, I dealt with everything you said, except the previously mentioned verses(I think). I seen nothing that proved a pre-trib rapture or disproved a post-trib one. I found a lot of questionable conclusions. I feel that you are definitely making attempts to protect your beliefs. I also question how you interpret scripture.

Like I said, I will continue this convo if you FIRST deal with my examples of post-trib verses. You must deal with the whole passage I gave, because the timeline is spelled out in it. BTW, don't give me any interpretations that are not backed up with specific Bible. That is not how I debate, and I expect the same from others. I feel you have done a lot of that so far. Maybe I am wrong. I give you the chance to defend yourself and will comb over everything you say. But I will not respond till you deal with the post trib verses I gave you. Thanks for your time.

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Sorry about the "x" posts. It told me that my reply didn't go through, so I kept trying. Apperently they did go through every time, but then I couldn't delete them, so I reduced them to an "x"

I didn't expect do be talking any more on this site. I am glad I will now have the chance. I just recently checked my e mail to see the replies. I will be responding shortly. I am glad to see some action on this thread!

Well, needemp, I do not think you need my help in this one, as it seems you have it covered quite well yourself. But stil, I do like to throw one or two things in once in a while, so here we go.

2 THESSALONIANS 1:6 - 2:4 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith and power, that the name of the Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

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showing that
(1) God will give rest at the same coming He takes vengeance on all those who oppose Him.

(2) The resurrection/rapture happens together at the second coming of Jesus after the tribulation.

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Hebrew 9:28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will apear a second timem apart from sin, for salvation.

Jesus coming one more time.

11:39-40 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they shall not be made perfect apart from us.

All Christains will be made perfect at the same time, the second coming of Jesus.

By the way, welcome Stephen5, I am glad you joined in.