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Trinity is nothing but a way of self consolation
 
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Christianity discussion
 
AbdulKalam
05/02/12
One servant cannot have multiple masters. For, the masters would start a mega war with each other to show supremacy. See, Jesus was CREATED by God. . . He was a Creation, and hence doesn't deserve worshipping.

Jesus himself worshipped God. If somebody follow Jesus, then what he should do is the worship God, not Jesus. . . Jesus came only to show how to pray! Hope people will understand this and abandon the concept of trinity. . .
May be trinity was invented to take consolation that WE ARE POWER FUL, OR SO LUCKY, AS WE HAVE THREE GODS. Actually there is only one God
           
 
Yoda55
05/19/12
replied to: AbdulKalam
Replied To:   One servant cannot have multiple masters. For, the masters would s...
Matthew 3:13-17

The Godhead is one substance, consisting of three discernable persons who work in perfect harmony. Their harmony stems from their concensus decision to work from the foundation of Truth. The condition of Truth is the only one which can successfully build (anything). A creator, by nature a builder, can only conscience Truth as the basis upon which to succeed.

The three persons of the Godhead, existing in Truth, have divided between themselves the responsibilities essential to creation and its consequential maintenance.

The cited passage demonstrates the trinity quality of God's interaction with mankind. It identifies the Son (both True man and True God), the Father (speaking from heaven at the culmination of the Baptism), and Holy Spirit (decending as a dove-like vision)... This passage comes to us from Jewish disciples, teaching not only their brothers in heritage/faith (Jews) but also the Gentiles.

Man cannot reach up to God, nor attain perfection, from an imperfect state. God must reach down to mankind, providing dispensation from the condition (known as Sin) which was brought upon mankind through Satan (an aborrant, creation - a unique and rebellious angel).
           
 
AbdulKalam
09/11/12
replied to: Yoda55
Replied To:  Matthew 3:13-17 The Godhead is one substance, consisting of thre...
God created men , and now God himself must come down to the rank of man for man's benefit. . . Then what was the point of God's creating man?

Nothing more to say to the experts. . . Just-

Acts 2:22 “Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with
miracles and wonders and signs
which God performed through Him in
your midst, just as you yourselves
know.

jesus prayed to god. . . .
Luke 6:12 “he continued all night in prayer to God.” …because: Matthew 20:28: Just as the son of man did not come to be served, but to
serve. How did Jesus pray to God? Matthew 26:39 ‘…he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, ‘My
Father…”

truereligiondebate.wordpress.com/2008/04/24/446/
           
 
Yoda55
09/11/12
replied to: AbdulKalam
Replied To:  God created men , and now God himself must come down to the rank of...
AbdulKalam wrote: "God created men , and now God himself must come down to the rank
of man for man's benefit. . . Then what was the point of God's creating man?"

God created Man, as the pinnacle of His living organisms here on Earth. He knew that with the gift of reason would lead Man to be open to suggestions, which He foresaw Satan would make. God didn't walk into creating this universe as some ignorant clown... All the actions and consequences which would unfold were foreseen, and plans for mitigation were set. God loves His creation. And particularly, He loves the most important character therein. God seeks return of His love, equally (as He loves). Because Man is not on the same level as God, and because Man is limited in his abilities, he can only approximate (poorly) in return what God gives to Man.

When Man decided to deviate from God's plan, Man became sinful (and cannot be in the presence of God without cleansing of the sin). Since Man cannot cleanse himself, only God can cleanse Man. That means that the pure, the Truth, has to take upon Himself the sin which Man has manifested. If Man has no cleasing, his future is death - separation from God (eternally). A perfect sacrifice, one innocent of any crime, is the only way for this sin to be removed. The Son (the eternal, the Jesus personality of the Godhead) subordinated Himself to the Father, and refused to use His power (as part of the Godhead) except only as the Father directed. Jesus became a servant to the Father - an example to Man, to be emulated by him.

God wants Man to be able to be in His presence, and commune with Him - just as Man was in the Garden of Eden. The sacrifice of the perfect, sinless life (for the sinful) will suffer the penalty of the Law - which God had put into place as the consequence to taking one's eyes off of God. [This is as true for the angels, as it is for Man - that's why Satan is no longer permitted in Heaven (or any of the fallen angels - demons)]. Satan is sinful. The only problem that Satan has (differing from Man) is that Satan is already immortal (he has no mortal part which can die and leave the "soul" to live on afterward) - there's no solution for him. We're fortunate. We have a chance to regain what was lost - Satan does not.

Redeemed, Man can renew his relationship with God (as God intended it from the beginning). Since God only has Man's best interests in mind (joy, peace, love - as a Father has for His children), an eternity with these I find most attractive.


AbdulKalam wrote: "Nothing more to say to the experts. . . Just-

Acts 2:22 'Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with
miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in
your midst, just as you yourselves know.'

jesus prayed to god. . . .
Luke 6:12 'he continued all night in prayer to God.'
…because: Matthew 20:28: Just as the son of man did not come to be served,
but to serve. How did Jesus pray to God? Matthew 26:39 '…he fell with his face
to the ground and prayed, "My Father…"'

AbdulKalam wrote: "truereligiondebate.wordpress.com/2008/04/24/446/"

Your contention is that Jesus was not God. If Jesus was born of a human father and a human mother, then he would be sinful (as all of mankind is, by the Adamic sin) with no righteousness. What is in question (afterward) is whether a human being (as God designed and made them) can remain sinless. God, Himself, has stated that Man cannot do so. Man is less powerful that Satan, and cannot resist the temptations with 100% ability. Jesus, the human being, was begotten of God and born of a human mother. In being born of a human mother, Jesus was True Man. In being begotten of the Father, Jesus was True God (notice that "begotten" is not the same as inherently human parenthood).

The Adamic sin, under which Jesus was born as a man, was removed by the baptism He received at the hands of John the Baptist. At the point where that occurred, Jesus was now available to do the Father's will (using the Holy Spirit as the messenger) for human redemption - the perfect sacrifice.

Demons, who recognize Him as the Son of God, plead not to be tormented by His commands (which they had rejected at their fall from Heaven). Only God can compel Satan and his demons to do ANYTHING. Demons directed by Satan are not exorcised by him - that would be contradictory to his authority.

See Biblical citations:
Daniel 3:25 (envisions Him)
Matthew 4:3; 4:6 (Satan recognizes Him); 8:29 (demons recognize Him); 14:23; 27:54
Mark 3:11 (demons recognize Him))
Luke 1:35 (angels herald Him); 3:38; 4:3 and 4:9 (Satan recognizes Him); 4:41 (demons recognize Him); 22:70
John 1:34 and 1:49; 5:25; 11:27; 20:31
1 John 3:8; 4:15; 5:5 and 5:10-20
Paul -
Acts 8:4-8 (Jesus gave His powers to disciples to heal, expel demons)
2 Corinthians 1:19 (Jesus is equated with Son of God)
Hebrews 4:14
           
 
AbdulKalam
05/24/13
replied to: Yoda55
Replied To:  AbdulKalam wrote: "God created men , and now God himself must come ...
You ( Yoda55 ) say : Jesus is " a man attested to you by God with miracles", " In being born of a human mother, Jesus was True Man"....

I completely agree with you ...

However I find it pretty much difficult to believe in the fact that " In being begotten of the Father, Jesus was True God."

Because , God is too exalted to be associated with the concept of begetting children . Even if this is taken to be true, then a thought might arise as to there might have been some super God who had created the present God, and He was so powerful that He did not require any partner.

( God forgive me! I neither believe it , nor do I have that thought )

That Jesus performed so many miracles does not mean Jesus was God. Why God supported Jesus with so many miracles is only known to Him. But as far as my little thoughts can reach, Jesus was given miraculous powers so that he might proven divine ( Not God Himself ).


Also ,do not think Jesus came to save you ,he came to show you a path of salvation , which you have to do by yourself. Otherwise those hypocrites out there will readily take Christianity just in order do sinful acts, and say "there is no problem , Jesus is there to save us " ...





............................................................


Let the believers die in peace, and unbelievers believe before death
           
 
Yoda55
05/26/13
replied to: AbdulKalam
Replied To:  You ( Yoda55 ) say : Jesus is " a man attested to you by God with m...
AbdulKalam wrote: "Because, God is too exalted to be associated with the concept of begetting children."

Don't be misled by the English definitions set for the word "beget". Both in the Old Testament (OT) [Genesis] and New Testament (NT) [Luke] there are list of lineages - OT from Adam to David, and NT from Jesus back to Adam. In the context of these lineages, "beget" speaks to a physical act of husband and wife (copulation and fertilization).

The "begotten" Son, of God (the Father), is not a reference to any super-creator who spawned either the Father or the Son. What it refers to is that God is multi-faceted. The personalities He exhibits to us reflect functional relationships (qualities of personality and ability exhibited)... Don't fall into the trap of imbuing God with human qualities - man is FINITE, and our understanding of God is therefore LIMITED. If we attempt to describe God in terms WE understand, then we do HIM injustice.

The Father is the creative force, with a plan for the creation that is produced which is event-driven. The Son is the source of LIFE, and the one who tends and nurtures the creation. The Holy Spirit is the teacher and comforter for those caught in this sinful world, with man having fallen from grace through disobedience. Although we humans list them as three named individuals, they are not separate. They are one substance. One God.

AbdulKalam wrote: "That Jesus performed so many miracles does not mean Jesus was God."

You didn't read the references I listed earlier, obviously. In those passages, not only did Jesus declare that He was God (the Son) - but, the demons identified and declared Him as such. Reading the Bible will point out the inter-relationships between OT and NT.


AbdulKalam wrote: "Also ,do not think Jesus came to save you ,he came to show you a path of salvation , which you have to do by yourself."

If you read the OT story about the Tower of Babel, and the King Nimrod who tried reaching God by human efforts, you'll see God's reaction to it - by destruction of the Tower and confusion of the languages. This was to prevent mankind from falling completely under Satan's control. God wanted to give mankind a chance for salvation. NOTHING that mankind will do can reach God, because of the sinful condition (which prevents being in the presence of God).

Only God can absolve mankind of sin. And the rule invoked was that something's life must be forfeited for transgression. The Hebrews were given a system of sacrifice (animals for people), a cleansing through blood of innocents - an encouragement that there is a way for mankind to be reconciled to God.

Since man cannot reach God, then God must reach out to man. His answer was Jesus, the Christ. The spirit of God (as 'the Son') being sent by the Father, as a sacrifice of total righteousness and innocent of sin, was the solution to mankind's transgressions. He does it once ONLY, for ALL sin - if He didn't to it once-and-for-all, then we'd conclude that God wasn't capable of doing so... But, He did do it - perfectly. His GRACE and MERCY are extended to man, even though man doesn't deserve it (and deserves punishment, instead). God wants us to be able to join Him, in His heaven and remain with Him ALWAYS... THIS is the measure of His love.


AbdulKalam wrote: "Otherwise those hypocrites out there will readily take Christianity just in order do sinful acts, and say "there is no problem , Jesus is there to save us."

The fact that only God can see into the heart of a man, permits Him to discern between those who are genuinely followers of Christ and those who aren't. Man cannot fool God. Those folks to whom you allude (going out and sinning like there's no tomorrow) aren't truly believers - they haven't embraced Jesus' teaching. They will receive judgement commensurate with their behavior. The true Christian confesses a sinful nature, amplified by the tendency to think of self over God. The sincerity of confession (which only God can discern), is answered (through the Holy Spirit) with the reassurance that Christ has paid for ALL sin (past, present, and future).

The Christian lives with the assurance that following Jesus' path, fulfilling His command to spread the Word through evangelism, and the Grace the Father provided through Jesus' death and resurrection will result in judgment being the Father viewing each individual through the righteousness of His Son. Since His Son is sinless and righteous, the believing Christian will see God and be in His presence forever.

---------------
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
           
 
AbdulKalam
05/26/13
replied to: Yoda55
Replied To:  AbdulKalam wrote: "Because, God is too exalted to be associated wit...
Note the use of "begotten son" appearing in OT:

I will tell of the decree of the Lord:
He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have begotten you. .... ( Psalm 2:7)

Here David is the narrator. If that doesnot make David God, why do u take Jesus as God ? (While reading the Bible, you will find many references to "son of god", where g in god is written in lower case, however the word used in original scriptures is all the same.)

So it is obvious u are clearly overlooking some verses and only choosing those which satisfies you .
If the demons declared Jesus as God, that was like a gambit in chess.




You said : " Since man cannot reach God, then God must reach out to man..... "
See how close to us is God as Written in Quran : (if u have no access to Quran, please google)

‘We (Allah-SWT) are closer to you than your jugular vein’. (Qaf – 16).
‘Wherever you are, He is with you’. (Al-Hadid – 4).
When My servants ask you (O’Prophet – SAWS) concerning Me, ( tell them ) I am ever present ( with them ) and I listen to the call of him that calls Me. (Al-Baqara – 186).


Also see that He doesnot need to sacrifice Jesus for our salvation. He Himself is the most forgiving :

"Say: O My servants who have transgressed against their own souls, despair not of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful." (Surah az-Zumar 39:53) (...there are many verses like this)


Regarding my last point "Otherwise those hypocrites out ....to save us." what I meant was that " this concept may cause social disorder caused by some hypocrites"


...............................

let the believers die in peace, let the unbelievers believe before death
           
 
Yoda55
05/27/13
replied to: AbdulKalam
Replied To:  Note the use of "begotten son" appearing in OT: I will tell of ...
AbdulKalam wrote: "Note the use of 'begotten son' appearing in OT: I will tell of the decree of the Lord: He said to me, “You are my son; today I have begotten you. .... ( Psalm 2:7) "

The translation which I view is found on biblegateway(dot)com using the New King James Version (NKJV).

If you viewed Psalm 2, in its entirety, then you would see it was narrated by David (inspired by God), but David was writing of the coming Messiah (Messiah = God's annointed savior). The title of the Psalm being "The Messiah’s Triumph and Kingdom"...

The NKJV states it as:

"'I will declare the decree: The LORD has said to Me,
‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You..." (as far as you quoted).

Capitalization of pronouns in the Christian passages comes from the detailed research by theologians into who was speaking to whom (and when), in many places where the recorder does not make it obvious. In this case:
LORD = God
Me = Messiah (Jesus)
My Son = God's son (Jesus)
You = Jesus

The passage you quoted, of which I've provided the Christian clarified rendition, is reflecting David being given information about one of his decendents - the promise that the Messiah will come "from the house of David" to rule... Now, read the rest IN CONTEXT.

[If you point a finger at someone, and claim "cherry-picking", then you must be prepared to have someone point one right back at you.]


AbdulKalam wrote: "See how close to us is God as Written in Quran..."

I acknowledge that God is *omnipresent*. You understand this word, yes? It means "present everywhere at the same time". This is something that Christians understand - along with *omnipotent* and *omniscient* ("all powerful" and "all knowing", respectively).

The ancient Hebrew recorders viewed "heaven" as "in the sky" (where God was at creation). They didn't have the benefit of Ptolemy or Galileo... So, the Nimrod story reflects the idea of man attempting to reach heaven (God) by "going UP". And, the opposing direction would necessarily be "DOWN to earth" (where man lives). It's traditional worldwide to assume that kings sit on thrones, elevated above the floor where the "common" people are. The idea of God "reaching DOWN" to man stems from this concept - so don't sound self-righteous.

The animals are sinless, they haven't trangressed God's laws. That's why they were eligible to act on man's behalf. But, they are not volunteers - they are taken.


AbdulKalam wrote: "Also see that He does not need to sacrifice Jesus for our salvation. He Himself is the most forgiving:"

God makes the following statement (Malachi 3:6): "'For I am the LORD, I do not change;..."

He is steadfast (immutable) in His laws and behavior. To be True always, He cannot be any other way.

I agree that God is forgiving, and merciful. He, also, laid out a set of rules by which this universe would behave, and what was acceptable to Him (Gen 2:16-17): "And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, 'Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.'"

SIN (i.e. transgressing God's command) brings death. That which has sinned is tainted, and is no longer sinless (or righteous). Something tainted cannot make itself clean. That would be like having a glass full of water getting sludge poured into it - then expecting the glass to clean itself (without being able to replace the water).

For the Hebrews, He instituted sacrifice - the very first occasion being when God clothed Adam and Eve in animal skins to cover their nakedness at their expulsion from Eden. But, the sacrifice was momentary - not covering everything. Each sin committed, individually, requires new sacrifice under that system. Man was not free of sin, in and of his own efforts. Human beings are incapable of remaining sinless (100% without sin). If they could be, then why would a person need God? And THAT is what God is trying to communicate to us - we CANNOT exist without Him.

Being immutable, God maintains His position regarding sin. If there is to be a final solution to sin, then God Himself must perform it - because the works of man cannot cancel sin. Man is tainted. Only God is sinless and righteous. And, since the sinful state remains in man God must provide the permanent solution...

As Christians believe, that sinless (and volutary) sacrifice was God (the Father) accepting Jesus' (the Son) life in payment. Since God is omnipotent, death (as we know it) does not control God. And, so, Jesus' resurrection to life is an expected consequence of Him being one with the Father.
           
 
AbdulKalam
05/27/13
replied to: Yoda55
Replied To:  AbdulKalam wrote: "Note the use of 'begotten son' appearing in OT: ...
Ya, we also think God is present every where at the same time ..



If sin brings death, [Ezekiel 18:20] and if your assertion that sacrifice of Jesus was the the permanent solution to sin, then why do men still die ?
Jesus said : I am the way, and the truth, and
the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.[ John 14:6]

What he meant is that "I am the way to God, Follow my footsteps and then only you can come to God".
Note Jesus said “Moses wrote about me.” (John 5 :46).

This verse points to Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18 :18. Here God says “I will raise a prophet like Moses.” Hence, Jesus was telling those Jews that he was that Prophet.

Jesus also said :
"Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master; neither one who is sent greater than the one
who sent him." (John 13:16).






Regarding "begotten son" check Luke 3:38 "son of Enos, son of Seth, son of Adam, son of God.". Here Adam is also son of God.

Check Romans 8:14 - "For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God."

See Luke 1:31-32 "31.And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus. 32.He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his ancestor David"

Did you notice "he will be 'called' the Son of Most High" ? It means Son of God was only a name of Jesus.




"The only Son" as stated in John 3:16, is actually a misinterpretation. The original Bibles had " the unique Son" in its place, which was replaced by the current words by Jerome in around 336 AD. [http://www.mostmerciful.com/gideon-bible.htm]

Some states
John 10:30 "The Father and I are one.”
to prove Jesus is God, or Son of God or whatever. But what is the context of "one" here ?
Please read John 17:11
"And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one."

One here means unity , not 'the same'.



................................

(Recall the time) when the angels said, `O Mary! Allâh gives you good tidings through a (prophetic) word from Him (about the birth of a son) whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, (he shall be) worthy of regard in this world and in the Hereafter and one of the nearest ones (to Him), [Quran 3:45]

She said, `My Lord! how can I and whence shall I have a child while no man has yet touched me (in conjugal relationship)?' (The Lord) said, `Such are the ways of Allâh, He creates what He will. When He decrees a thing He simply commands it, "Be" and it comes to be.'[Quran 3:47]

Please read http://bit.ly/12dZJOl if u can manage time.

           
 
Yoda55
05/31/13
replied to: AbdulKalam
Replied To:  Ya, we also think God is present every where at the same time .. ...
AbdulKalam wrote: "If sin brings death, [Ezekiel 18:20] and if your assertion that sacrifice of Jesus was the the permanent solution to sin, then why do men still die ?"

One has to know the nature of man. He is a two-part creature, which requires a third part to thrive (I'll get to that in a minute). Man's nature is earth-bound.

Man has a physical side, his body and his mind (intellect). That is earth-bound, coming from the physical environment. We, as physical human beings, are carbon-based mud bound to this planet. Our raw material comes from what is around us. There is no further extension to that. Even in Genesis 1 it says so - created from the dust of the ground.

Man has a soul - the "breath of life" which God, Himself, imparts to each and every person. This is spirit, because it came from Spirit. It is not physical, as the body is physical. God's Spirit (what He is) is eternal. So is the unique soul He gives to each person. It will out-exist the body - because it was given to us by an eternal Spirit.

See Genesis, and the admonition given to Adam. The person, Adam (body and mind), will die if God's command is transgressed. The spirit must return to God (see Isaiah 55:11). But, if the soul is sinful, it cannot return to God (Genesis 3:8, 4:16; Leviticus 22:3; Psalm 51:11, 68:2, 76:7). It must be cleansed of sin, in order to be in His presence (heaven - the dwelling of God). The judgement of God stands firm when it is levied.

In the case of Adam and Eve, the immortal physical quality they enjoyed being with God was forfeited. And, as such, all human beings are now mortal, inherited from sinful beginnings. The critical issue for God is that the soul does not also die because of the sin instigated by Satan. It is Satan's future to be separated from God for eternity. But, God does not want the misleading (Satan) of the innocents (Adam and Eve) to be eternal suffering for mankind. Therefore, a provision was made. A temporary measure for the Hebrew nation (blood sacrifices). But, this leaves out the Gentiles (non-Hebrews). God does not want just SOME to be saved, he wants ALL to be saved (should they recognize their errors, and seek out God). To achieve final solution, He sent Christ. [Previously, I spoke to man's inability to reach God.]

Now, the third part of man (the in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit, "God with us") is that which makes us complete - and He marks us as those faithful to God. So, when we physically die, we are accepted into God's presence and do not spiritually die ("second death" = eternal separation from God; Revelation 2:11, 20, 21:8).

God has promised that when we physically die there is a new, incorruptable body awaiting us. Because He was communicating with common men (disciples), He spoke in terms that they could rationalize. In my view, the "new" body reference is really an allusion to a change in state of existence. They did not have the concepts to describe or understand this... The soul will be absent from the physical body - but still be able to emote, reason, and impose action that affects this universe. The soul will draw nourishment from God, Himself - maintaining vitality from the source that feeds everything.
           
 
Yoda55
05/31/13
replied to: AbdulKalam
Replied To:  Ya, we also think God is present every where at the same time .. ...
AbdulKalam wrote: "What he meant is that 'I am the way to God, Follow my footsteps and then only you can come to God'."

Actually, because of Jesus' unique position as the final sacrifice (eliminating attribution of sin to human beings - IF they believe in Him and His action) is "the way". Up to Jesus' appearance on the scene NO Gentile had a chance to be forgiven. Why? Because the failure to recognize and worship the one (and only) God placed a roadblock in "the way" of the path to God. Jesus' comment states that His actions had removed the blockage - sin - as interference to mankind's path to God. Those wishing to "come to God" can only come due to Jesus' accomplishment.

This life provides irritations, placed in our path by Satan and his cohorts (demons). If a person does not trust in God and His plan for us, then these obstacles become fatal to the soul (as no one can perfectly satisfy obedience - Romans 3:21-26). To "fall short" of God's glory means "missed the mark". Missing the mark equates to being unrighteous, a judgement that has already been levied by God. There is no reprieve from this judgement, because any man trying to justify himself fails. Those who have trust in God (the Father and the Son) will experience irritations from these same sources. But, the difference is realized in that God only permits what the person is capable of handling. With every temptation, God provides ways to avoid committing the sin (sinning = allowing oneself to experience the fulfillment of the temptation).

AbdulKalam wrote: "Note Jesus said 'Moses wrote about me.' (John 5:46). This verse points to Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18:18. Here God says 'I will raise a prophet like Moses.' Hence, Jesus was telling those Jews that he was that Prophet."

Again, you read only pieces... I agree that Jesus was a Prophet of God. He did make claims, which He identified as coming from God (the Father). Those events foretold were realized, with only one exception. He has not yet returned in glory, to judge the world. THAT is still pending. At that time He will initiate a kingdom (of the Jews) which will last "a thousand years". Since symbology is often used, which does not follow literal meaning, this "thousand years" can be interpreted to refer to God's time (see 2 Peter 3:8). Man's time is not on the same scale as God's time.

That is not what you have been debating - you claim that He is ONLY a prophet (being not captialized = just human). Prophet is only ONE of the attributes He has. You think that He has only one mission during His sojourn on Earth.

AbdulKalam wrote: "Jesus also said: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master; neither one who is sent greater than the one who sent him.' (John 13:16)"

If you examine your mathematics rules, then you will notice that "not greater than" is NOT exclusively the same as "is less than". The phrase does not rule out the property "is equal to".

As I mentioned in a previous posting, capitalization is placed in Christian translations to highlight when the speaker or the object is referring to God, Himself. Reading the surrounding passages to your citation (John 13:12-17):
"[12] So when He had washed their feet, taken His garments, and sat down again, He said to them, 'Do you know what I have done to you? [13] You call Me Teacher and Lord, and you say well, for so I am. [14] If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. [15] For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you. [16] Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. [17] If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them...' "

He has provided His disciples with an example of servitude and humility. Since Jesus is God in the flesh, then His comments to the disciples are saying that the twelve should do likewise to all the rest of mankind (and that failure to do as Jesus stated would be like saying "I'm better than or equal with God, who washed *my* feet"). A disciple is ALWAYS considered less than the master, since the experience the master has (coupled with the theory being taught to the disciple) outweighs the disciple's theory only.

           
 
Yoda55
05/31/13
replied to: AbdulKalam
Replied To:  Ya, we also think God is present every where at the same time .. ...
AbdulKalam wrote: "Regarding 'begotten son' check Luke 3:38 'son of Enos, son of Seth, son of Adam, son of God.'. Here Adam is also son of God."

Read the entire section (Luke 3:23-38). Notice the first verse:"[23] Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph..."

Notice the parenthetical. Since Joseph was not Jesus' biological father (everyone thinking that He was, because Joseph did NOT shame Mary by pointing out that she was pregnant BEFORE they both had been brought to the marriage), someone else is the father. Mary, being a virgin (attested to by the midwives who delivered her), had experienced an immaculate (or virgin) birth for Jesus. Had the virgin birth been biological only, the child would be female. The DNA held by the female human being is two (2) "X" chromosomes in each cell of her body. In order for a male to be born, one of those "X" chromosomes has to be replaced with a "Y" chromosome. They are not self-generating. Joseph had not provided it. No other human being had provided it. That leaves only one alternative - God. Creation is uniquely the purview of God. [On the other hand, Satan is the destroyer - given measured release from God's bindings, when needed.]

That begs the question as to "how" God provided it. The Bible passages describing the "annunciation" (archangel Gabriel announcing God's selection of a Hebrew woman to bear the Son of God) state that the Holy Spirit (third person of the Trinity, the one who would inhabit each believer's heart) would "overshadow" her... Now, when God created the universe (Genesis 1), He "overshadowed" the waters. You can try to read into it any number of explanations which make sense to men. But, I think that, since God is not limited by human characteristics, we men shall not know what has not been explained - but those souls "returning to God" will understand, when everything is unveiled over eternity.

The lineage lays out a list, each human "begets" a "son" (not "Son"), in keeping with the Christian annotations for clarity distinction between mankind and God. Man was a creation (separate and non-existent prior to creation), not a portion of God (as the Son and Holy Spirit are, with the Father) who existed from eternity past. Let's not fall into the trap of trying to describe God in human limitations, as if they are specific independent persons... Let's use an example to clarify (presuming you are married male and have at least one child). AbdulKalam is simultaneously a father, a son, and a grandson. You are not three individuals, but three relationships defined by roles. As a father, you have one role (assigned certain specific characteristics). Similarly, as son and grandson, you have other distinct roles. Your roles overlap only in that you are one individual and those roles interact.

Examine Matthew 1:1-16. The phrasing used for Jesus' relationship to Joseph and Mary: "[16] And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ." Notice that Joseph is referred to as "the husband of Mary", and the attribution of birth attributed to Mary alone ("Mary, of whom was born Jesus..."). After all the painstaking soandso-begot-soandso (in so many words), why is Jesus not so listed? There is no "Joseph begot Jesus". Joseph is not Jesus' biological father, which this list represents between prior generations. As I pointed out, there is only one option for Father. The Father's substance was provided to Mary, in the form of the "Y" chromosome which made a boy possible. And God, Himself, inhabited Jesus (true man) as His Soul (true God)... Here is the catch - Mary's lineage is also through the "line of David". Whether He's referred to by his father's line or His mother's line, He's still a son of David - a royal line.


AbdulKalam wrote: "See Luke 1:31-32 '[31] And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus. [32] He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his ancestor David...' Did you notice 'he will be "called" the Son of Most High'? It means Son of God was only a name of Jesus."

I suggest looking at Matthew 1:23 (Immanuel = "God with us"). If you read the Bible through, you will notice something significant. God often calls men by names *other than* those supplied by the person's parents. We discussed the facets of God being "named" (which describe collected characteristics). God uses names this way - look at Jesus speaking to his first disciple Simon (renamed "Peter", and what "Peter" means). Look also at Revelation 19:11-16 - many names are attributed to the Son of God, seen now in power and glory.


AbdulKalam wrote: "'The only Son' as stated in John 3:16, is actually a misinterpretation. The original Bibles had 'the unique Son' in its place, which was replaced by the current words by Jerome in around 336 AD. [http://www.mostmerciful.com/gideon-bible.htm]

Your quotation is not NKJV John 3:16. The NKJV inserts "begotten" between "only" and "Son" in your quote. The website you provide is Islamic - and the credentials of the host are suspect as someone well educated in Christian studies. Would you expect a Jewish scholar to convincingly (and supportively) expound on the validity of Islam? I strongly expect your answer is, "no".

The following is attributed to: Robert Dean Luginbill, Ph.D; Classical and Modern Languages.

However, the ancient Greek referred to, "monogenes", is literally "one begotten" - and not translated as "unique". I found [www(dot)ichthys(dot)com(slash)mail-Only-Begotten-Mother-Of-God-On-This-Rock(dot)htm; question 1, response 1] which I think ties Hebrew and Greek together to resolve the uncertainty. For interest's sake, you might also read (question 7, response 7) further.