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I have trouble beleiving in the trinity...Father Son and Holy Spirit are one ...
 
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Christianity discussion
 
drew53
05/16/10
I have trouble beleiving in the trinity...Father Son and Holy Spirit are one There are so many scriptures that state (Jesus talking)" the Father is greater than I" " When you pray pray only to your Father in heaven in my name" and many more Did Jesus pray to himself when he went up into the mountain for 40 days ? and at the end of this system Jesus will hand the kingdom over to his Father ? Studying the bible I feel God and Jesus are seperate and the Holy Spirit is the power of God that he can bestow on us
           
 
mvastano6164
05/19/10
replied to: drew53
Replied To:  I have trouble beleiving in the trinity...Father Son and Holy Spiri...
The thing about Jesus and his father must be understood in two distinct ways. One way to interpret his prayers is in the flesh as he was limited when he became human so it should be understood that when he says the father is greater than I it relates to his human side as related to his father who remained transcendent while Jesus was on earth. Second there are also times when Jesus states plainly that he and the father are one like when he said to Phillip when answering Philip he said he who has seen me has seen the father>see John 14:6. The two are one. The bible also states plainly that the three names: Father-Son _ Spirit are in fact persons separate but in relational unity. This does not mean that there are three gods but rather means that god has a relational triune makeup. Remember that the doctrine of the trinity can only be understood by what we know and what we know is a limited view on this side of heaven. However, I can give you an example as follows:
The Sun is three in one> we see the light that travels from the sun as only an image of the Sun itself. So the light itself can be seen as the exact image of the Sun and at the same time separate and distinct from the Sun. The Sunlight itself has a power in that it can invisibly cause photosynthesis and make plants grow among other things. So the Sun is distinct in that the Sun itself cannot be seen only the image of it as we perceive it in its exact representation of it as it comes to us and the power of the sun is revealed in what it does to promote life as it does so invisibly. See Hebrews 1:1-11

Also the Nicene Creed.

The First Council of Nicaea, held in Nicaea in Bithynia (present-day Iznik in Turkey), convoked by the Roman Emperor Constantine I in 325, was the first Ecumenical council[1] of the Catholic Church, and most significantly resulted in the first uniform Christian doctrine, called the Nicene Creed. With the creation of the creed, a precedent was established for subsequent 'general (ecumenical) councils of Bishops' (Synods) to create statements of belief and canons of doctrinal orthodoxy— the intent being to define unity of beliefs for the whole of Christendom.
The purpose of the council was to resolve disagreements in the Church of Alexandria over the nature of Jesus in relationship to the Father; in particular, whether Jesus was of the same substance as God the Father or merely of similar substance. St. Alexander of Alexandria and Athanasius took the first position; the popular presbyter Arius, from whom the term Arian controversy comes, took the second. The council decided against the Arians overwhelmingly (of the estimated 250-318 attendees, all but 2 voted against Arius[citation needed]).

The Council of Nicaea did not end the Arian controversy, which it had been called to clarify. Up until about 360, theological debates mainly dealt with the Divinity of Jesus, the 2nd person of the Trinity. However, because the Council of Nicaea had not clarified the divinity of the Holy Spirit, the 3rd person of the Trinity, it became a topic of debate. The Macedonians denied the divinity of the Holy Spirit. This was also known as Pneumatomachianism.

First Council of Constantinople
The council affirmed the original Nicene Creed of faith as true and an accurate explanation of Scripture. This council also developed a statement of faith, which included the language of Nicaea, but expanded the discussion on the Holy Spirit to combat heresies. It is called the Nicene Creed of 381 and was a commentary on the original Nicene formula. It expanded the third article of the creed dealing with the Holy Spirit, as well as some other changes. About the Holy Spirit the article of faith said he is "the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father, With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified". The statement of proceeding from the Father is seen as significant because it established that the Holy Spirit must be of the same essence (ousia) as God the Father.
Mike
           
 
tojo
06/08/10
replied to: mvastano6164
Replied To:  The thing about Jesus and his father must be understood in two dist...
It is a difficult aspect to the Christian Faith but the bible is clear when it mentions that the Lord,Jesus and the holy spirit are one I try and understand it is that the holy spirit is the means by which God through Jesus and in the early days with the disciples after pentecost the ability for simple men to be able to carry out miricles as Jesus did on numerous occasions and the apostles did later.

It was through the Holy Spirit and by the Holy spirit that saint paulwas able to carry out is ministry after being visited by jesus on the road to jerusalem.
           
 
drew53
06/09/10
replied to: mvastano6164
Replied To:  The thing about Jesus and his father must be understood in two dist...
Thank you Mike for your reply I appreciate the time and effort you put into trying to help the people who pose questions or doubts re the holy scriptures.I still have to get my head around the trinity I beleive in God his beloved son Jesus and the Holy Spirit with all my heart but when I study the scriptures I still get the impression that yes they are one in love grace forgivness and hope for mankind but two seperate beings just to quote one... Genisis 1:26 let US make man in our own image.he refered to the plural here.
Drew
           
 
catholicapoligist
07/10/10
replied to: drew53
Replied To:  I have trouble beleiving in the trinity...Father Son and Holy Spiri...
For all those who claim that nobody called Jesus , "God" , in the Bible I offer the following compilation of quotes directly from Holy
Scripture:

1. Upon seeing the risen Christ, the doubting apostle Thomas exclaimed: "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28)

2. "Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and Our Savior, Jesus Christ." (Titus 2:13)

Saint Paul is referring here to the second coming of Christ in "glory," in contradistinction to His first coming in humility and meekness.
The "great God" and "our Savior" are both predicated to the same Person, Jesus Christ.

3. "And we know that the Son of God is come: and he hath given understanding that we may know the true God, and may be in his true
Son. This is the true God and life eternal." (1 John 5:20)

Saint John's two epistles and the introduction of the first chapter of his gospel (the last of his writings chronologically) were written to
refute the incredulous gnostics who, thinking to honor Christ as a mere man, they dissolved Him of His divinity, thus meriting for
themselves this severe condemnation from the beloved apostle: "And every spirit that dissolveth Jesus is not of God: and this is
Antichrist ..." (1 John 4:3)

In chapter five of his epistle given above Saint John makes use of the demonstrative pronoun "this" in reference to its antecedent "true
Son." God and "life eternal" are interchangeable. Thus we find at the start of the same letter the concept "life eternal" supposited for Son
of God: "We declare unto you the life eternal which was with the Father, and hath appeared to us" (1 John 1:2)

Jesus = Son of God = life eternal = true God

4. "From whom is Christ according to the flesh, who is over all things God blessed forever." (Romans 9:5)

5. "In this we have known the charity of God, because He hath laid down his life for us ..." (1 John 3:16)

It is Christ then, Who is "over all," and Christ Who is "God blessed forever." Whose love was made known by Our Lord's sacrificial
death? God's love, says Saint John. Therefore God laid down His life for us. God was hung upon the cross at Calvary. Could the two
apostles have made themselves more clear?

6. "Behold a virgin shall be with child, and bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, 'God with
us.' (Matt. 1:23 & Isa. 7:14)

7. "Say to the fainthearted: Take courage ... God himself will come and will save you." (Isaias 35:4)

8. "For a child is born to us and a son is given to us ... and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, God the Mighty, the Father of
the world to come, Prince of Peace." (Isaias 9:6)



The Claims Of Jesus

I often hear the claim of non -Christians that Jesus never claimed to be the Messias. Let us see what Holy Scripture actually says.

Our Lord claimed to be God, the judge of all men: " When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the Angels with him, he will sit down
upon the throne of his glory and all nations shall be gathered into his presence.... ( Matt. 12:8 )

Jesus claimed to be all-powerful, a Divine person, equal to the Father in power, and to be in fact, God the son:

" All power is given to me in heaven and in earth" (Matt.28:18). " All things are delivered to me by the Father; and no one knoweth who
the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and to whom the Son will reveal him." ( Luke 10:22)

On the occasion of His trial before the High Priest, Jesus was asked: " Art thou the Christ, the son of the blessed God? Jesus said to
him I am." The priest understood this as blasphemy: "He has blasphemed." (Mark 14:61-64; Matt. 26:63-66) What was the blasphemy if
not that Jesus claimed to be the true Son of God? In John chapter 8 verse 58 Our Lord makes a similar claim when He says : " Before
Abraham was made I am." We also read from Saint John:


It is clear too, that the Jews understood Jesus to be claiming to be God:

" But for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God." (John 10:33) Before Pilate : " The Jews answered him:
We have a law; and according to the law, he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God." (John 19:7)

Our Lord also did certain acts which are in themselves an implicit claim to the Divinity. He forgave sins as of His own independent
power: " Son, thy sins are forgiven thee." But the scribes who were present thought to themselves, " Who can forgive sins, but God
only.... " But that you may know that the Son of man hath power on heaven and earth to forgive sins...." (Mark 2:5-12). To Mary
Magdalen: " Thy sins are forgiven." (Luke 8:48).

Christ Performed Real Miracles



Christ Foretold the Future


The Resurrection of Christ is an Historical Fact.

Christ preformed thes actions becaus as i have already proven is God


           
 
silverglass
07/10/10
replied to: catholicapoligist
Replied To:  For all those who claim that nobody called Jesus , "God" , in the B...


Very impressive stuff. It is clear that the NT is replete with texts supporting the divinity of Christ. For those who are looking for this truth it is evidently clear that those eyewitnesses and apostles and for that matter that generation had seen a great light. When Christ appeared he dispelled the darkness that Satan had for so long held over this planet. Imagine God himself among us! You did an excellent job showing this concept. Thanx.
           
 
catholicapoligist
07/12/10
replied to: silverglass
Replied To:   Very impressive stuff. It is clear that the NT is replete with...
NP
           
 
Stealthjet
04/07/11
replied to: drew53
Replied To:  I have trouble beleiving in the trinity...Father Son and Holy Spiri...
GOD and the WORD who manifested in flesh became Jesus Christ, are the only stated SPIRIT BEINGS in the Bible. The Holy Spirit (Ghost) is the POWER OF GOD. You cannot find in the BIBLE that TRINITY really exist but you can find in the Catholic Doctrine. There's no other Holy Scriptures but the HOLY BIBLE alone that you could read to understand. TRINITY is unbiblical and product of interpretation of the Nicene Fathers.
           
 
RandMSutor
05/05/11
replied to: Stealthjet
Replied To:  GOD and the WORD who manifested in flesh became Jesus Christ, are t...
To Stealthjet:

Let the word of God be your teacher. From John 15:26 thru chp.16, Jesus spoke of the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, using the words "He" & "Him" over ten times! Please read this, it's very enlightening.

Also, when Jesus was baptised, the Holy Spirit descended on Him in the form of a dove, then the Father spoke from Heaven saying "This is My Son in Whom I Am well pleased. Here you have all three persons of the Godhead manifesting themselves.

Just because the word trinity is not in the Bible, that doesn't mean it's wrong to use the word trinity when speaking about the Godhead.

Also, the Holy Spirit, as Jesus Himself stated, convicts the world of sin. How could He do this (work on our consciences) if he was an an impersonal act-of-power rather than a person?

They each have their own roles. The Father has the headship; Jesus, the second person of the trinity has the creative & redemptive roles; and the Holy Spirit has the direct power of operation on our consciences to convict of sin & point us to our need for a Savior.

Jesus said "But when He, the Spirit of Truth is come, "HE" will guide you into all Truth. John 16:13

And again in v. 14 "HE" will glorify me, . . .

If you read only the sixteenth chapter of John, Jesus' words alone will convince you of this truth!

           
 
Squadie
08/31/11
replied to: tojo
Replied To:  It is a difficult aspect to the Christian Faith but the bible is cl...
It is some time difficult to see person try to put God in a box and then say that he is one person the truth of the matter is that in my understanding Jesus Christ is the creater who created all things and that includes u and me ( JOHN 1:3), ( HEBREWS 1:1-2) jESUS teach us how to pray in ( Mathew 6:9-13), but he also has a prayer in which he actually prayed. in ( John 17) (vs 5 makes it clear that Jesus Christ existed from eternity). The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Godhead remember Jesus Christ had to leave before the Holy spirt could come remember that before Jesus Christ came to this earth he was omnipresent he is not that anymore but the spirit who is hear know is and he it is that convect,convert,and change us to become more like Christ. and that same spirit will lead us in to all truth and bring back things to our rememberance, ( JOHN 14:26).
           
 
Masada007
09/03/11
replied to: drew53
Replied To:  I have trouble beleiving in the trinity...Father Son and Holy Spiri...
I believe after this reading, you will have no more trouble with the Trinity which is not. It shows scientifically that God cannot be triune.


The Absolute Unity of God.

Isaiah says that, absolutely, God cannot be compared with anyone or anything, as we read Isaiah 46:5. "To whom will ye liken Me, and make Me equal to , or compare Me with, that we may be alike?"

Therefore, more than one God would have been unable to produce the world; one would have impeded the work of the other, unless this could be avoided by a suitable division of labour.

More than one Divine Being would have one element in common, and would differ in another; each would thus consist of two elements, and would not be God.

More than one God are moved to action by will; the will, without a substratum, could not act simultaneously in more than one being.

Therefore, the existence of one God is proved; the existence of more than one God cannot be proved. One could suggest that it would be possible; but since as possibility is inapplicable to God, there does not exist more than one God. So, the possibilitly of ascertaining the existence of God is here confounded with potentiality of existence.

Again, if one God suffices, a second or third God would be supperfluous; if one God is not sufficient, he is not perfect, and cannot be a deity.

Now, besides being God absolutely One, He is incorporeal. If God were corporeal, He would consist of atoms, and would not be one; or he would be comparable to other beings; but a comparison implies the existence of similar and of dissimilar elements, and God would thus not be One. A corporeal God would be finite, and an external power would be required to define those limits.

Ben: