Israeli-Palestinian conflict

Israeli-Palestinian conflict

 
With Hamas announcing that it will no longer resort to violence, recognize th...
 
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Israeli-Palestinian conflict discussion
 
TimUpham
With Hamas announcing that it will no longer resort to violence, recognize the pre-1967 borders, and it leaders either resigning or announcing they will not seek re-election, and letting Mahmoud Abbas be the official spokesperson, does that mean that Hamas has finally been defanged? With Gaza's economy is so much malaise, has that finally brought about the collapse of Hamas? Economic collapse of the Soviet Union is brought the Cold War to an end. Is economic malaise what had brought the Palestinians together to negotiate with Israel?
           
 
ali110
replied to: TimUpham
Replied To:  With Hamas announcing that it will no longer resort to violence, re...
I have to mention that Hemas have even Noted that the peace process does not feel able to reach such a stage and Israel has never recognized full sovereignty of a Palestinian state.
nothing has changed ,The settlement process , Gaza Surrounding....
Hemas is like river running in the hearts, we have born whit a credence, a belief, a hope ...the freedom. the Resistance will never stop .
           
 
TimUpham
replied to: ali110
Replied To:  I have to mention that Hemas have even Noted that the peace process...
In some degrees the resistance has stopped. The last rocket firing from Gaza into Israel, was being done by Islamic Jihad and the Popular Resistance Committees, and Hamas was trying to get them to stop, but it was the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, that got them to stop it. Israel has recognized Palestinian sovereignty by negotiating with the Palestinian Authority, and could get it recognized even more if Hamas was included in them. As for the settlements in the West Bank, Israel will have to make a decision about either returning the settlers back to the pre-1967 borders, or let them stay and become citizens of Palestine. But international mediation is desperately needs for this, it cannot be just bi-lateral between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.
           
 
ali110
replied to: TimUpham
Replied To:  In some degrees the resistance has stopped. The last rocket firing...
Hi i know that this days the conciliatory policy of the Brotherhood in Egypt about us and Israel has prevailed on Hemas and we can't ignore Differences in the Hemas leadership, particularly among the leadership inside and outside the movement have occurred.

i don't think Hamas developments indicate essential change in this movement, but simply consider the structural changes.Although the current Hemas & Hشmas future will be different, but it does not appear that its role in the status of the Palestinian problem is reduced.

and you should read about what Ismail Haniyeh told , in an interview with English news agency "Reuters" and also follow hamas news in some Muslim news agency like abna.ir ,etc.
           
 
TimUpham
replied to: ali110
Replied To:  Hi i know that this days the conciliatory policy of the Brotherhood...
I have been following Hamas very closely, in all various forms of English language media. I know Arabic, so I can read those sources as well. In English language media, there was an interview by Mousa Abu Marzook for "The Jewish Daily Forward." In it Mr. Marzook said an Israeli-Palestinian peace treaty would just be viewed as a "hudna." Well, Mr. Marzook better learn his Islamic history a little bit better. Mohammed, the Prophet for a living was on the caravan between Damascus and Mecca. Caravan raiding was a very important part of the economies of the Arabian tribes. So Mohammed, the Prophet devised hudna as a truce, where they would not raid others caravans. This led Arabian tribes up into Byzantine and Persian territory to raid their caravans. With this came the expansion of Islam and the Arabic language. In fact, today's Palestinians are descendants of caravan raiders, who came into Byzantine territory in 7th century, C.E. In fact the name Palestine, which goes back to the ancient Egyptians to describe the land beyond Sinai, was used by the Byzantines to also described this area of their empire. So if an Israeli-Palestinian peace treaty were to mean just a hudna, it would also mean trade relations with Israel. With the teaching of Hebrew in schools within Gaza, I think Hamas is looking into the future, with future relations of trade with Israel.
           
 
gratefuldennis
replied to: TimUpham
Replied To:  With Hamas announcing that it will no longer resort to violence, re...
Hamas has already agreed to accepting the 1967 borders. Why should they not seek re-election? They were elected overwhelmingly by the people throughout the Palestinian territories; unless you don't believe in democracy. The only reason Abbas was placed in power was because Israel and the U.S. would not recognize Hamas or negotiate with them so Hamas agreed to compromise but this was against the wishes of the people.

The last rocket attacks were from Fatah from the West Bank and not from Hamas. Fatah is considered as an enemy and was on the Terrorist list by the U.S. in Lebanon while we were friends with them in the West Bank. Our foreign policy is nuts in the middle east and throughout the Muslim world and is riddled with hypocrisy. In several countries our enemies are the very people we placed in power and armed.

It is impossible to be a terrorist when you are a citizen of an occupied country. Otherwise you would have to consider the French underground during WW2 as also a terrorist organization.
           
 
TimUpham
replied to: gratefuldennis
Replied To:  Hamas has already agreed to accepting the 1967 borders. Why should ...
It was the Hamas leaders that announced to the media, that they have either resigned or announced that they would not seek re-election. So you can get on-line on their website, and ask for an explanation on why they are not seeking re-election. Abbas was allowed to take power by emergency decree under the Palestinian Constitution, because there were not enough votes on the Palestinian Legislative Council to resolve the deadlock over forming a new government. There have been no documented cases of rocket attacked launched by Al Fatah into Israel. The last documented case was by Islamic Jihad and the Popular Resistance Committees out of Gaza, which stopped as the results of a Muslim Brotherhood brokered cease-fire. The Palestinian Embassy in Washington, D.C. is manned by Al Fatah diplomatic personnel, and if Al Fatah was on the list of U.S. Terrorist Organizations, it would not be represented in the nation's capital. Gaza no longer has an Israeli presence there, but 42% of the West Bank is still occupied by Israel. The goal is to go Israel out of the remainder of the West Bank, and to have both Gaza and the West Bank made into the independent nation-state of Palestine, living beside the independent nation-state of Israel. This is not hypocrisy, but just going back to the 1947 United Nations vote of partitioning Palestine into an Arab state and a Jewish state.
           
 
ali110
replied to: TimUpham
Replied To:  It was the Hamas leaders that announced to the media, that they hav...
!
these days we are busy in a great ceremony in iran. the day that we showed the world we will never give up... so i can just tell you 1
"Israel is a cancerous tumor that must be eliminated"
.......Rohollah mousavi Khomeini.
the idea of free Palestine is love that you don't know about.
i believe you know so much a bout Israel and Palestine but i can see all of your conclusions are based on western news analysis-you are a real materialist ;-)-maybe it's time to learn if Palestinian have came so far it is because of the power of their belief.Economic collapse? this sort of things can't stop them,never.
good luck
           
 
TimUpham
replied to: ali110
Replied To:  ! these days we are busy in a great ceremony in iran. the day that...
We are all materialists, because we are all concerned about our daily lives. The Palestinians are materialists, like we all are. That is the reason why with their successful grape harvest in territory controlled by the Palestinian Authority, they are looking at ways to export them. In other words, to make money off of them. Right now the Palestinian economy is so dependent on international aid, that taxes had to be raised to make up for the decrease in international aid, because of the Western economies being hit by economic malaise. When you look at the concept of "Palestinian love," I have dealt with it, in the numerous non-government organizations I have worked with, such as Combatants for Peace. Israel is not a cancerous tumor to be eliminated, because that cancerous tumor has an economy the size of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon combined, and that cancerous tumor is the Palestinians largest trading partner. What should be moving Palestinians forward is not a revolution that will never come, e.g,, Hamas Doctrine, but building an economic infrastructure. The Palestinians know that they need money, because wealthy expatriates living in Western Europe is what funded the Munich massacres at the 1972 Summer Olympics in Munich. And what happened to all of them? They were killed off by the Mossad. Instead of dying for a lost cause, why not live for an economic gain. That how I define "Palestinian love."
           
 
gratefuldennis
replied to: ali110
Replied To:  ! these days we are busy in a great ceremony in iran. the day that...
Like the other poster I really don’t know where you get your information. Settlements don’t determine occupations. There were settlements before Israel was even a state and they got along fine. Gaza is nothing but a prison for 1.7 million people of which 1 million are considered refugees. Israel controls its borders, airspace and seaports. Israel also controls everything that goes in and out of the Gaza strip which includes money of which belongs to the people of Gaza, food, clothing, and building materials that are badly needed to rebuild houses, buildings and schools destroyed by Israeli Military bombing.

The borders and wall has kept the people from Gaza from access to their farms causing more hunger and suffering of the Gaza people.

Israel is the largest recipient of financial and military aid from the U.S. than any country in the world.

This is something that just happened a couple days ago from the news show Democracy Now:

“In Israel and the Occupied Territories, an Israeli soldier and a Palestinian militant have been killed in an incident along Israel’s border with the Gaza Strip. The militant entered Israel and killed the soldier before being shot dead. Israel then fired missiles into southern Gaza, injuring three people.”

You might notice that it does say “Occupied Territories.”

This was also reported a couple days ago: “Turkish Court Indicts Israeli Military Leaders for Gaza Aid Flotilla Killings.”

And as far as your statements about Fatah as never being considered a terrorist organization or launching rockets into Israel this is statistics for the year 2007:

“The Israeli Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center estimated that in 2007 the proportions of rockets fired from the Gaza Strip were:
34% – Palestinian Islamic Jihad (Al Quds)
22% – Hamas (Qassam)
 8% – Fatah (Kafah)
 6% – Popular Resistance Committees (al Nasser)
30% – unknown”

But more were fired from the West Bank than Gaza since Fatah is stronger there than in Gaza.

Of course like I have stated when a nation is occupied by a foreign military people then fighting back is not terrorism but freedom fighters. I do not support killing innocent civilians but Israel is far more egregious in that area than the Palestinians although Israel has more precise weapons like laser guided missiles.

One of the hypocrisies I spoke of is the fact that Israel has had for a long time a secret nuclear weapons program. They have invaded many countries while Iran hasn’t invaded a country in 150 years. Plus Iran is surrounded by countries with nuclear weapons and who is the U.S. and Israel to be anointed my God to determine who shall have them and who not. The U.S. is the only country in the world that proved they will use them to kill innocent people so who is afraid of who?

The reason Hamas has decided not to run for re-election is they want a united Palestine. Israel and the U.S. will not recognize them so they can’t participate in any peace talks. They did win the elections in the West Bank but decided to share power for the good of the Palestinian people. The foreign policy of the U.S. has always been to only support governments that can benefit them and democracy really has nothing to do with it. They have supported more brutal dictatorships than any country in the world.

           
 
gratefuldennis
replied to: TimUpham
Replied To:  We are all materialists, because we are all concerned about our dai...
The hypocrisy I also spoke of is that the U.S. has supported and armed military and political groups that they later considered them the enemy and fought against the very people they placed in power throughout the Middle East and Islamic world and other places in the world as well; the list is long.

We backed and gave weapons to Suharto in Indonesia who killed a million of his own people in Aceh and a third of the population of East Timor.

In Iran:
“The 1953 Iranian coup d'état was the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Iranian Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh on 19 August 1953, orchestrated by the intelligence agencies of the United Kingdom and the United States under the name TPAJAX Project.”

After the coup the dictator Shah of Iran was placed in power with support from the CIA who controlled the Iranian Intelligence for over 10 years. When the CIA learned that the Shah had cancer they wanted to make sure an anti-communist would replace him so they helped to bring the Ayatollah Khomeini who was in exile back to power in Iran. What angers the U.S. now is after this they no longer had the control of Iran that they wanted.

Another spin and hypocrisy is that the U.S. and Israel is not after Iran because of the so called ‘secret nuclear weapons spin.’ The U.S. was angry at Iran because they were going to set up an International Oil exchange where they were going to sell oil for their own currency or the Euro and not the U.S. petro-dollars. Of course Israel is going along with them since they are the biggest receivers of U.S. foreign aid, which is mostly military aid.

They brought Saddam Hussein to power in Iraq, and later punished all the Iraqi people by invading to take out the very person they brought in.

“In 1959, there was a failed assassination attempt on Qasim. The failed assassin was none other than a young Saddam Hussein. In 1963, a CIA-organized coup did successfully assassinate Qasim and Saddam's Ba'ath Party came to power for the first time. Saddam returned from exile in Egypt and took up the key post as head of Iraq's secret service. The CIA then provided the new pliant, Iraqi regime with the names of thousands of communists, and other leftist activists and organizers. Thousands of these supporters of Qasim and his policies were soon dead in a rampage of mass murder carried out by the CIA's close friends in Iraq.”

The chemical warfare Hussein used on the Kurdish people we sold him and instructed him on its used then later use it for propaganda as one of the reasons to invade.

The real reason we invaded was because after the sanctions were to be lifted when the last inspections were finished Hussein had a deal to sell oil to Europe for the Euro and that’s why the big rush to invade before the sanctions were done, which would have only been a couple more weeks. It is the United Sates petro-dollars that underlie the U.S. policy for Iraq and Iran. And the oil pipeline and opium fields in Afghanistan. The Taliban got money from the US. Drug Enforcement Agency for eradicating the opium fields in Afghanistan; but just two years after the invasion Afghanistan was once again the largest producer of opium in the world.

In Afghanistan we are fighting against the very people we armed and supported to fight the Russians. The U.S. actually created Al Qaeda themselves:

“One of the first non-Afghan volunteers to join the ranks of the mujahideen was Osama bin Laden, a civil engineer and businessman from a wealthy construction family in Saudi Arabia, with close ties to members of the Saudi royal family. Bin Laden recruited 4,000 volunteers from his own country and developed close relations with the most radical mujahideen leaders. He also worked closely with the CIA, raising money from private Saudi citizens. By 1984, he was running the Maktab al-Khidamar, an organization set up by the ISI to funnel "money, arms, and fighters from the outside world in the Afghan war.”

I am an American and love my country but the country to me is all the honest, hard working people who built this country; its farms, roads, railroads, buildings and everything from their blood and sweat. Not a few rich people; banks and corporations that exploited the labor of the honest, hard working folks and who now bought our government. Mussolini described fascism as “corporatism.”

The indigenous and working people all over the world want the same thing. They want a roof over their heads to keep the weather out, to send their kids to school and their family members to a doctor when needed, to keep their families from being hungry and they are also concerned with their neighbors and community and wish to be free from tyranny. And we are not all materialist. Many peoples of the world choose to live for principles and values rather the superficial materialistic goals.

As Wilhelm Reich said: “Work, Love and Knowledge are the wellsprings of our life; they should also govern it.”
           
 
gratefuldennis
replied to: TimUpham
Replied To:  We are all materialists, because we are all concerned about our dai...
By the way I forgot to mention about your statement that Fatah has never been classified as a Terrorist organization this from Wikipedia:

"Fatah used to be designated terrorist under Israeli law and was considered terrorist by the United States Department of State and United States Congress until it renounced terrorism in 1988."
           
 
TimUpham
replied to: gratefuldennis
Replied To:  By the way I forgot to mention about your statement that Fatah has ...
I did not say that Al Fatah was never classified as a terrorist organization, but that it was no longer classified as one. It shows that with the renouncing of terrorism in 1988. If it was still classified as one, then there would be a Palestinian Embassy in Washington, D.C.

           
 
TimUpham
replied to: gratefuldennis
Replied To:  Like the other poster I really don’t know where you get your inform...
I am not sure, what you are referring to about settlements. There are Israeli settlements in the West Bank, where approximately 300,000 settlers live in a land of approximately 3,000,000 Palestinians. It has not been a harmonious situation either. I was in the West Bank, where I saw an Israeli settlement, flying its own flag, with its own municipal services. Then over the hill was a Palestinian village, flying its own flag, with its own municipal services. If there is to be a two-state solution, then all of the West Bank will have to become a contiguous entity, It cannot be an Israeli settlement here, and a Palestinian village there. The West Bank just cannot be a patch quilt of different political entities. Gaza can ends it isolation, by having Hamas recognize the State of Israel, and getting its essential commodities from Israel, such as water, electricity, building materials, and certain medications. Israel is there to stay, and so are the Palestinians. This game of denial cannot go on, because people are suffering for it. There have been no documented cases of famine within Gaza, and let us not wait until that happens either. Israel is a large recipient of American aid, and so are the Palestinians with U.S. 1.5 billion dollars. The difference is that with Israel, it goes to maintaining one of the most sophisticated military and intelligence systems in the world, and with the Palestinians it goes to day to day living, so there will not be a famine amongst them. It says Occupied Territories, because neither Gaza and the West Bank have been declared a nation-state yet. As for the Turkish Court decision, Israel offered to pay U.S. $6 million dollars for the Gaza Aid Flotilla killings. It is up to Turkey now, if it will accept it. Those rocket firings came out of Gaza, during the Gaza War in 2007. Al Fatah was involved in the rocket firings out of Gaza, but none came out of the West Bank. But the information listed shows only the Gaza Strip, not Israeli intelligence showing any information whatsoever about the West Bank. When mentioning Israel's weaponry, it is obviously used more than just against armed conflict with Gaza. When Israel deployed nuclear-tipped warheads in 1973, it was to be used against Egypt and Syria, not against Gaza. Fortunately, it never got to the point where Israel had to use them at all. Iran did invade Iraq in 1982. That is the reason why, Iraq greatly fortified Basra for a defense against Iran. Also when Iran advanced into Iraqi Kurdistan, Iraq was fearful that Kurdish guerillas were going to join up with the Iranian Army, which is the reason why poisonous gas was used on civilians at Halabja. So you cannot just narrowly point to the United States and Israel as being the Great Satans. It goes much deeper than that. As for included Hamas, it has been Jimmy Carter who has been exploring the possibility. Possible because Hamas has more to prove, but they have not been completely written off either.
           
 
TimUpham
replied to: gratefuldennis
Replied To:  The hypocrisy I also spoke of is that the U.S. has supported and ar...
I am not sure what all of this rambling on is to refer to. Is it on behalf of the Palestinians, the Kurds, or the Shiites in Iraq? As for the Shiites in Iraq, they are no longer ruled by a Sunni dictator. The Kurds have a long ways to go, it is trying to get their language official recognized in Turkey, and they are not even at the beginnings of establishing a nation-state. Of course right now they are divided up amongst Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran, and their dialects are not even mutually intelligible to each other. If they were to become a nation-state how would they standardize education there? The Palestinians have more of a catalyst for a nation-state, it is that it just has not been completed yet.
           
 
gratefuldennis
replied to: TimUpham
Replied To:  I am not sure what all of this rambling on is to refer to. Is it o...
I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy of the U.S. foreign policy in the Islamic world. Where many of our enemies today were people, political party's, dictators that we backed and helped to come to power. There are a lot more examples than the ones I sited. It has no relevance if they were Kurds, Sunni's or Shiites.
           
 
gratefuldennis
replied to: TimUpham
Replied To:  I did not say that Al Fatah was never classified as a terrorist org...
Sorry for misunderstanding your comment but it doesn’t change my point that Fatah is no longer on the Terrorist list but Hamas still is although Fatah has continued rocket attacks on Israel as late as last year. This is not a support for or against Hamas or Fatah but I rather for my support for the struggle of the Palestinian people for their freedom and independence.

The U.S. is really not concerned with terrorism but just terrorism that is against their own interest. They train terrorist, assassins, and death squads throughout Latin American at the School of the Americans now renamed; “The Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation.” They also have backed and armed dictators around the world and they actually harbor known terrorist within its borders like Luis Posada Carriles who is wanted in Venezuela for blowing up the Cuban airliner in 1976 among a long list of other things.

The only reason for support for the U.S. support for Fatah and the Palestinian National Authority in the West Bank is to maintain a division among the Palestinian’s. Hamas did win the majority of the parliamentary votes but the split was agreed on because the U.S. and Israel would not recognize Hamas in any peace talks or as a democratically elected government. With the new agreement between Hamas and Fatah we will see what happens; “In April 2011, officials from Hamas and Fatah announced that both parties had reached an initial deal to unify into one government, with plans for elections to be held in 2012.”

“In the January 25, 2006 parliamentary election, the party lost its majority in the Palestinian parliament to Hamas, and resigned all cabinet positions, instead of assuming the role as the main opposition party. The Hamas legislative victory led to a split between the two main Palestinian political parties, with Fatah retaining control of the Palestinian National Authority in the West Bank.”

I know that there will be resistance to any movement to unify the Palestinian people by U.S. and Israel. Divide and conquer.

There will be no peace as long as Israel continues their human rights violations and their brutal occupation of Palestine.

There are literally hundreds of U.N. General Assembly resolutions and U.N. Security Council Resolutions against Israel. And today “Israel stands in violation of more UN resolutions than ANY OTHER NATION ON EARTH.”
           
 
TimUpham
replied to: gratefuldennis
Replied To:  Sorry for misunderstanding your comment but it doesn’t change my po...
Hamas may not be as locked out, as it seems. Musa Abu Marzook was interviewed by the "Jewish Daily Forward," and in the interview he said Hamas would view an Israeli-Palestinian peace treaty as a "hudna." Hamas has already recognize the pre-1967 borders with Israel, renounced the use of terrorism, so why not take it all the way? Jimmy Carter has been meeting with Hamas leaders, and it is too premature to say now, but there can be a possibility of it recognizing the State of Israel. Also, pressure has been applied by both the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, and by Turkish President, Abdullah Gul. It could be some more ear twisting just make make Hamas relinquish.
           
 
gratefuldennis
replied to: TimUpham
Replied To:  Hamas may not be as locked out, as it seems. Musa Abu Marzook was ...
That is pretty major. There are also many Jews in Israel that oppose the occupation and there are also many Jews that are opposed to the Zionism. It would be nice to have peace and see them treat each other with dignity and respect. Around the world that would be nice and I have hope it will be possible. I do have faith in the people and it is mostly the governments of corporatism that stand in their way for their own selfish interest.

When war is big business world peace will remain far off until the people have more power than the corporations.
           
 
ali110
replied to: TimUpham
Replied To:  We are all materialists, because we are all concerned about our dai...
Hi...I'm back to fight!!:d because It seems the discussion is getting a bit serious.
first of all"... we are all concerned about our daily lives" why shouldn't we? life goes on and we have to deal whit it. the only question is how? with the word materialist i just want to talk about the way we do deal.how to chose our way and why?
Israel IS a CANCEROUS TUMOR because of the idea of new middle east,the big Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates.it is because of the belief of ownership of a homeland in any way they can. this homeland is a a gift from the GOD which let them to kill.kidnap...Israel is a cancerous tumor that threat the peace , as they follow the idea of THE NEW WORLD ORDER.. It is a cancerous tumor because they believe they are chosen by god..the real humans and other are just slaves. because " Israel is the mother and other nations are her child"- thirteen-flod protocol of Zionism.-
we are are not talking about jews. no we are talking about Zionism.
           
 
TimUpham
replied to: ali110
Replied To:  Hi...I'm back to fight!!:d because It seems the discussion is getti...
We can call Israel whatever we want. We can pray everyday for its destruction. Will those prayers ever be manifested? Israel has an economy the size of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon combined, so it is not going to economically collapse like the Soviet Union and apartheid South Africa. Their economies collapsed because they could not compete in the world economy. Israel can because multinational corporations such as Intel have invested in it, and Israel is providing high technology to China, India, Canada, and Mexico, just to name a few. Israel has one of the strongest military and intelligence systems in the world. So all of everybody's prayers for destruction, do not seem like they will manifest. So what is the alternative? How about Israel to coexists with its neighbors, and to have an independent Israel to live along side an independent Palestine. Our faiths can all make us all look divine in the creator's eyes, but how about we look divine in each others eyes? If so, then that can be the new world order. In the Jewish Siddur, it states "You will love your fellow man, as though you will love yourself." I interpret it as meaning you will love your fellow Jews, Christians, and Muslims as yourself. That is not Zionism, that is Judaism. Zionism began as creating a Jewish homeland, but it can evolve to that Jewish homeland coexisting with its neighbors, such as an independent Palestine.
           
 
gratefuldennis
replied to: TimUpham
Replied To:  We can call Israel whatever we want. We can pray everyday for its ...

I agree. But the people will have to do it themselves. We can't depend on the banks, corporations or the governments that they own to bring about a peaceful co-existence.

“Salvation for a race, nation or class must come from within.
Freedom is never granted; it is won.
Justice is never given; it is exacted.”
—A. Philip Randolph
           
 
dekh
replied to: ali110
Replied To:  Hi...I'm back to fight!!:d because It seems the discussion is getti...
Hi there Ali
I'm part of that CANCEROUS TUMOR you mention. It is sad to hear people talking about other people that way, or do you consider me an ape and a pig? (As your "peacful" Quran says)

By the way, Hammas IS talking about Jews. Let me remind you of the Hammas charter:

"Article Seven: The Universality of Hamas:
By virtue of the distribution of Muslims, who pursue the cause of the Hamas, all over the globe, and strive for its victory, for the reinforcement of its positions and for the encouragement of its Jihad, ......................................................................nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).

Jews.... not Zionists...not Israelis..... JEWS!


Islam sure is a peacfull religion, wouldn't you agree?
           
 
TimUpham
replied to: dekh
Replied To:  Hi there Ali I'm part of that CANCEROUS TUMOR you mention. It is s...
The question is not Islam, but how a political entity like Hamas interprets Islam. One of the its senior representatives, Mousa Abu Marzook had an interview with "The Jewish Daily Forward." In it he stated, Hamas would never recognize an Israeli-Palestinian peace treaty, they would only accept it as a "hudna." If Mr. Marzook understood his Islamic history a little bit better, and knew precisely what a "hudna" is. Mohammed by profession was on the caravan from Damascus to Mecca. To the Arabian tribes at that time, caravan raiding was a very important part of their economies. Mohammed devised the "hudna" or truce, where they would not raid each others caravans. This took the Arabian tribes up into Persian and Byzantine territory to raid their caravans. Also, it led to the expansion of Islam. For "hudna" was expanding for economic growth. This led later to the to the Muslim control of the Silk Road, and the Southeast Asian spice trade, which led to the expansion of Islam into Central and Southeast Asia. Dar al-Islam today trades with the entire world, but the expansion of Islam does not go along with it. If Hamas performed "hudna" with Israel, there would be great potential for economic growth. Israel could help develop Gaza's share of the Tamar natural gas fields. An operational airport in Gaza could be used by Israeli farmers in the Negev, to fly out fresh fruit and flowers to markets overnight in Europe. Gaza could be receiving service fees and tax revenues off of it. When you look at Islam from another point of view, it is a religion of economic growth, but when will the leaders of Hamas recognize that, along with the State of Israel.
           
 
dekh
replied to: TimUpham
Replied To:  The question is not Islam, but how a political entity like Hamas in...
That is a great picture you paint, TimUpham, if only it was so.
Unfortunately it is not just Hammas. We have Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, the selphs massing in Sinai and Whole Arab countries trying to wipe us off the map. Oh, we also have El-Qiada as the icing on the cake.

We have a state for our people. I would be happy to have the Palestinian people get their state too, but it cannot be at our expence and it cannot be another terrorist state right on our borders.

I don't know if you are following the world Jihad.
True it isn't all Islam but they are the vocal and violent radicals who easily kill anyone who opposes them.
Part of that is countries such as Iran who openly state they will wipe us off the map.

So, while I like your picture, I don't see it as a practical one.... so far
           
 
ali110
replied to: dekh
Replied To:  Hi there Ali I'm part of that CANCEROUS TUMOR you mention. It is s...
Hi there dekh
Quran have mentioned four character of attributes Jewish people; perjury, denial of divine revelations, accusations and killing prophets. but i think you are a good liar too.
i don't need too answer your foolish message, I'm just here to defend my holy book so i just mention some part of it...plz don't miss last 3 part.

O children of Israel, remember the favors I bestowed on you, and made you exalted among the nations of the world. 2:122

We gave the children of Israel the Book, and the judgment and the prophethood, provided them with good things, favored them over other people, 45:16

" you went back (on your word), except only a few, and paid no heed.2:83

Although Moses had come to you with evidence of the truth, you chose the calf in his absence, and you transgressed.

***You know and have known already those among you who had broken the sanctity of the Sabbath, and to whom We had said: "Become (like) apes despised," 2:65

***Say to them: "O people of the Book, what reason have you for disliking us other than that we believe in God and what has been sent down to us, and was sent down before, and because most of you are disobedient?" 5:59

***All those who believe, and the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians, in fact any one who believes in God and the Last Day, and performs good deeds, will have nothing to fear or regret. 5:69
           
 
dekh
replied to: ali110
Replied To:  Hi there dekh Quran have mentioned four character of attributes Je...
Well Ali

I thank you for changing our status
I didn't like being a cancer toumer (or whatever you called us)

You have all the right to interpret the Bible anyway you want
I personally don't believe in the Quran. I hope you can forgive me for that.

But to the point. How do you think we should resolve the conflict we now have in the mid-east?
I mean, in a way that both side will be happy with it. A win-win situation.
Any ideas? Or do you hold on to the view that what I say is just foolish?

I prefer the win-win situation, how about you? Any chance?
           
 
TimUpham
replied to: dekh
Replied To:  That is a great picture you paint, TimUpham, if only it was so. Un...
Let us not lump this all together, but take it a part by pieces. Hezbollah is in Lebanon, and is being held back by internal discord within Lebanon and the Syrian Civil War. Hezbollah will not return to its past glory. Islamic Jihad operates out of Gaza, and they are basically a continuation of Hamas. The Salafists have been also fighting Hamas in Gaza, and the Egyptian Army in Sinai. Muslims fighting Muslims is not unusually. We see this in Gaza, Egypt, Syria, and let us not forget the 8-1/2 war between Iran and Iraq. The Salafists are a part of Al Qaeda, and the current leader of Al Qaeda is calling for another Egyptian Revolution to overthrow Mohammed Morsi, Egypt's first democratically elected president. Morsi has been dealing with numerous opponents within his own Muslim Brotherhood, who are calling for his resignation. Who are the the Palestinians outside of Gaza? Al Fatah in the West Bank, which recognizes the State of Israel. For Mahmoud Abbas is meeting with Israeli politicians all of the time. If we view this Islamic steamroller that will eventually destroy Israel, why would it be in the future, and not viewed in the past? Because there were numerous occasions to do so in the past. Is it because we cannot see into the future? That is what I am trying to do, and the only way I can do so, is if others help me.

           
 
dekh
replied to: TimUpham
Replied To:  Let us not lump this all together, but take it a part by pieces. H...
It isn't me who is lumping it together.
Wherever we turn we hear the same refusal to acknowledge our existence.
They are demanding a right the deny us! Is that the way to treat would be neighbors? :-)
           
 
TimUpham
replied to: ali110
Replied To:  Hi there dekh Quran have mentioned four character of attributes Je...
I have read the Qu'ran -- in English, my Arabic is not that advanced -- and saw striking parallels between it and the Old Testament, or in Judaism known as the Tanakh. Which is the reason why Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are known as the Three Abrahamic Faiths. From Abraham, the first believer in One God. These strong parallels should not be ripped a part, because of current discord. I have had no trouble being in ecumenical dialogue, because all of the parties were willing to participate. We can apply that now to current situations. Israel has an envoy in Cairo, to meet with Mohammed Morsi. As of yet, I am not aware of any Hamas official being in this meeting. But if there is one, it would be the first meeting between an Israeli official and a Hamas official. So we all should be parties willing to participate.
           
 
TimUpham
replied to: dekh
Replied To:  Well Ali I thank you for changing our status I didn't like bei...
Simple it is not foolishness, it is perseverance. Practice it, and it will pay off. For remember, we are all the Children of Abraham. That is the reason why the Cave of the Three Patriarchs in Hebron is sacred to both Jews and Muslims.
           
 
dekh
replied to: TimUpham
Replied To:  Simple it is not foolishness, it is perseverance. Practice it, and...
I appretiate your views and can only hope they will manifest some day. I would love to see the day where we go into Gaza for shopping and a good plate of Humus.

But right now, for better or for worse, I am living a certain reality which doesn't show too many signs of moving towards any kind of peace or even non-violence.

I am quite willing to accept the saying that it takes two to tango. Maybe both sides need to take dance lessons.....

One thing is for sure, we cannot accept continuous bombarding of civilians. We won't just sit back and wait till it stops! No country in the world would do that!!!
           
 
TimUpham
replied to: dekh
Replied To:  I appretiate your views and can only hope they will manifest some d...
We all want immediate action, yet at the same time Israel's ambassador to the United Nations said Israel has the right to defend itself. Within the United States, Republicans and Democrats are uniting after the bitter Presidential elections. Republican John McCain, member of the Senate Armed Services Committee and Republican Presidential Candidate in 2008, has recommended former President Bill Clinton to be Middle East Peace negotiator. During the Clinton Administration, he oversaw the Camp David Accords of 2000, and their collapse. Clinton can go back and analyze their failure, and modify them to reestablish new negotiations. But the necessity is, they just cannot be with Al Fatah. Hamas must be included as well, which means Hamas must recognize the State of Israel. It is not just international pressure, but must be pressure within Dar al-Islam. So far this has happened with Turkish President Abdullah Gul calling upon Hamas to do so, and the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt saying it will honor the 1979 peace accords with Israel, and called upon Hamas -- which is a part of the Muslim Brotherhood -- to follow it as a role model for coexistence. As for the current rocket firings, it will be up to the IDF to stop them. But an Israeli envoy is to be in Cairo, and as of yet, I do not know who this envoy will be meeting with. But if it is a member of Hamas' leadership, then it will be the first meeting between a member of Hamas' leadership and an Israeli envoy.
           
 
dekh
replied to: TimUpham
Replied To:  We all want immediate action, yet at the same time Israel's ambassa...
All I can say is I hope you are right and I am proven wrong.
As of now I don't see this happening.

I tell you one thing, the right to defend ourselves is something we will not give up.
Every country in the world would do the same.
Just to remind you, 9/11 brought on a whole battle against world terrorism.

I'll remind you another thing: We gave back Gaza to the Palestinians and what happened. Hammas took over and started accumilating weapons we they are feeding us right now.

So once again. I wish you were right, but it doesn't look like it. We will stop attacking when Hammas stop shooting.
We are attacking rockets aimed at civilians. Yes , unfortunately Gaza civilians get hurt but that is mostly through Hammas fighting behind those civilians.

I am now waiting to see what happens. I do not want to see a ground attack. It will be devastating for both sides.
I hope both sides can lay off some of the pride and somehow close this episode