Hi,

the answer is given by God Himself in these last days. There is a lot of confusion about the different denominations of Adventists.

Historical facts have been discussed for many years because there exist contradictionary quotes of the Spirit of Prophecy, Ellen G. White. Some say that she would have taught that SDAC never can fall. Others say this was conditional prophecy.

The discussion could not be solved so far with scriptural evidence. But now (end of 2009) a new study arouse: The study of the Clock of God in Orion, where God Himself gives the answer to these questions and doubts. You can find the study on the following web site: www.lastcountdown.org or just googling "Clock of God" "Orion".

The study shows which denomination is the true church of God.

When I published this post first I was convinced that SDARM would be the right church. But I had to change my mind because of direct revelations from God. See all on my web site.

God bless you in your studies and along your way to heaven,
John

This study clearly shows the SDARM cannot be the church of God as they teach error on the nature of Christ http://sabbathsermons.com/2009/08/19/divine-assurance-the-likeness-of-sinful-flesh/

Isaiah 4:1 says all seven churches fall including the SDARM and the IMS SDARM who teach error on church organisation - http://sabbathsermons.com/2010/06/23/3-the-church-of-that-other-angel/

The way of worshiping God in a manner that we think is worshiping him correctly but is not is addressed by Jesus. Here is a dialogue that Jesus had with the woman at the well. She recognised he was a prophet and she came directly to the point of the problem amongst the worshipers who claimed to be worshippers of God.

John 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

You worship you know not what. Have you ever thought about those words? How many people worship and they are creating an atmosphere of worship but they are not in tune with the one they are worshipping but their own imagination. Jesus said to the Samaritan;

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

God had raised Judah and the others went wrong but they continued to worship but they know not what. Jesus also said, the same thing is going to happen for the Jews.

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

The woman at the well came with a completely confused appreciation but when Jesus spoke to her she was enlightened and she responded to the call. The father seeketh such to worship him. Worship needs to be of the kind relevant to the one we seek to honour. Do you want to honour him? That is what it means to worship him. God is seeking such to worship him in spirit and truth. What is Jesus saying with these words? What is this prophetic sketch from this time onwards? It is not the Jews, it is not any institutional religion, it is the faithful people. The people who worship him in spirit and in truth. That is the people he will deliver his kingdom to. All those who were claiming to be the church were not really the church.

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Who will be his church? The woman dressed in the sun. The new testament reflected from the old testament the moon. They are the true Jews. Those who are circumcised at heart.

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.

People who claim, we are the Jews, we are the Christians. He is talking to the Jews. Here are these spiritual Jews claiming to be, but they are really blaspheming. Someone who claims to be Gods church but does not worship him in spirit and in truth is of the spirit of Satan.

… the disciples of John looked with jealousy upon the growing popularity of Jesus. They stood ready to criticize His work, and it was not long before they found occasion. A question arose between them and the Jews as to whether baptism availed to cleanse the soul from sin; they maintained that the baptism of Jesus differed essentially from that of John. Soon they were in dispute with Christ’s disciples in regard to the form of words proper to use at baptism, and finally as to the right of the latter to baptize at all. {DA 178.2}
Further reading;
http://sabbathsermons.com/2009/11/04/new-testament-sketches-of-the-remnant-church-in-the-last-days/
http://sabbathsermons.wordpress.com/category/the-church-of-god

Thank you brother for the answer and AMEN you are right. I had to change my mind and my own study revealed later the complete truth about SDA church which is in apostasy but not Babylon. There will be a sifting and shaking very soon and the unfaithful part of SDA church will leave.

The great test with the Sunday Laws is upon us very soon.

John

Hi,
I have 2 questions to the response above:

1) I have been under the impression that the 'chuch never falls' but am unable to reconcile in my mind how that pans out with my understanding that the church started in Eden, the 7 churches as shown to John in Revelation because there, there are changes which end with the Laodicean church. This confuses my mind - my understanding gets jumbled here - so please explain...

2) the author refers to IMSSDARM teaching an error in terms of organisation - can you please expand or explain briefly how the teaching of IMSSDARM is erroneous in this aspect, please?

I have been involved with the mother sda church the sdarm and the ims churches the past 20 years.
i do not accept that ;

1. the Reform Movement are in error re, "nature of Christ",
2. the ims is in error on the "doctrine of organization".

Both churches STAND on the platform of the,
Spirit of Prophesy , in both these areas of doctrine and can not be in error...

Where both churches are in error , and the reason that i am not a member of either YET, AND I WILL EXPLAIN MY yet

I do not accept that the,

1. reform movement are in error re "the nature of Christ"
2. ims is in error re, "doctrine of organization"

Both denominations stand rigidly on the spirit of prophecy and can not be in error on these 2 doctrines...

Both organizations are in error , with regards to ,
"CLOSED COMMUNION"..however,

john warncken

The Seventh-day Adventist Reform Movement Church, is Gods organized church in this Laodicean era .., and will forever remain so until Jesus returns soon..

False prophets will say contary, in an attempt to prevent souls from unitedly standing on the high platform of Truth together to form a united front against satan , in these last hours of probation.
THUS SATAN WOULD HAVE IT...

WARNING.....WARNING ....WARNING.... WARNING.....WARNING...

Any posts from
1. John Theil
2. Sabbath Sermons

do not ,
i repeat DO NOT even consider...

These Theilites,
are an INDEPENDANT ministry, a bunch of FANATICS and HYPOCRITES,
and their fate is that of Korah and his sympathizers...

Any thing that these false prophets have told you, pls run it by me and i will give you the Truth , as it is IN Jesus..

kind regards from
john warncken

mobile 0437704801

email; johnwarncken@gmail .com

Dear brethren

This is not a question of opinion or feeling, to decide which group is the remnant. We need to base our understanding on History, Doctrine and Prophecy. We need to view this subject with respect to the current position of each group in terms of its teachings. Dear reader may you listen to this presentation http://www.listentosermons.org/sermons.php?Id=23

Hallo Saints;

Allow me to post my reasons for not joining these reform movements claiming to be God's remnant church or that the SDA church is fallen has become part of Babylon! I will give my reason by posing a question that I view as fundamental in identifying God's remnant church!

1. Israel was rejected as God's church, not because primarily they built a golden calf, murmured in the wilderness, killed the prophets, rejected John'ns message, crucified Christ then stoned Stephen! But rather because they rejected the heaven sent message connected with TIME PROPHECY (70 weeks prophecy)which is connected with Christ's movement in the sanctuary (from the court, to the altar, and to the holy place)that elapsed in 34AD. Stoning of Stephen was indicative of the climax of their rejection of the message in that year! God then chose a remnant.

2. The religious establishment in 1800s were declared fallen/Babylon not because they were mostly Sunday keepers, with unhealthy lifestyles...but rather because they rejected the heaven sent message connected with TIME PROPHECY (Unto 2300 days prophecy)which is connected with Christ's movement in the sanctuary (Holy of holies) that elapsed in 1844. The scoffing of the disappointed faithfuls was indicative of their rejection of the message! God then chose a remnant, SDA.

MY QUESTION:

Which is the TIME PROPHECY that shows the that SDA had thus rejected heaven sent message? How is it connected to Christ's movement in the sanctuary? Which event marked the climax of that time prophecy? Then which remnant was left?

Otherwise I still believe the laodecian Church is SDA. Please someone answer my question.

Be blessed Saints,
Victor Shikuku.

Having been involved with the SDA church it is clearly saying Lord Lord yet not "Do"ing what God, Jesus and EGW said it must.

Read EGW. She said beware of the big church structure, of one person taking all power and 'committees'. God showed her these committees are the problem, where weak men let others make wrong decisions.

I have seen gross errors, falsehoods, lies and hiding their true state, and when GC people come, they suddenly all become holy and put away their true love.....the world, rock music, videos

God said be Holy, Peter said repent, and be baptised. Somewhere along the line people have merely been baptised into the church, without the repent and foresaking of their sins and then gone back to their dog vomit.

EGW said look for the fruit of repentance. If people are still in sinful living and practices, then they have not repented fully and have stopped growing. While we can't know all of our sinfulness at the time of baptisim, in Acts 2.38 we get Bapt and then the HS. The holy spirit comes to us , to lead us from our sins, showing us, all the way.

If we quence that HS then we go back to our dog vomit, drop of prayer life and bible life and we become what many SDAs are now, a Lord Lord group who sing well , preach well, but are deep in their sins, after bapitism.

Jesus said better you never knew me , than to go back to sinning as a Christian. A millstone around your neck.

Any day the IMS looks and acts 100% more real than the phoney SDA church, unions, conferences and GC.

I can speak from that truth, and read all about the abuse in the SDA church from a church , to Union to Conference to GC.

Ask, Search and Knock, (ASK!) God where the truth is. It was held by SDA but they say it and dont do it. Even in 1915 when Haskell was dying as GC Prez (past or present) he had eated meat and asked for forgiveness. But it was written it was too late, the damage done , and no such prayer and oil annointment was done to him and they walked away from his death bed.

Such comes to those who play with God. The spirit of delusion is put upon them and they only see their true state, if at all, on their death bed, while the true light holders walk past and hold the flame and banner up high of the true prophecy

IMS SDA looks good, does good. I heard that in former East Europe they recently showed up the SDA church by their students keeping the sabbath while normal old SDA kids were going to school on the sabbath and the old SDA leaders had asked IMS SDA to stop keeping their kids out on the Sabbath , as they were showing up the old SDA for falsehood

When we review what the old SDA leaders did at WW1, in Germany to break sabbath and join ranks with soliders and deliever the true sabbath keepers to death and persecution, and same repeated in WW2 in Germany, Korea and onwards, (read Advenist Review, on Korea cavein , where sold down the tube,), to me the leadership is corrupt and have little to warrant trust in them.

No longer pay tithe to SDA old church. EGW said is should go to those who DO Gods work. She said the single church treasury was false. That the single church treasury arose after EGW died, and John Longborough (?) who developed it, was well after EGW died

This is shown by their building a hospital in San Fris'co and calling it EGW Hospital, and when EGW had said it was not to be done, and the opening day an earthquake struck it.

Such shows the SDA , now with billions in debt from these massive satanic drug pushing hospitals, has lost the plot, their remedies do not work. And doing breast silicone implants, abortions and ECT electric shock treatment at Loma Linda, is only more evidence that the USD$70m it paid in external consultants at LL, shows its lost the plot, and your offering and rest is paying for such.

The old SDA should break off from the drug doctors, and kick them all out, and sell them off, with their billions in debt, and reform under the Madison Farm healing through diet and Christ approach.

Yet soon after EGW died, the Old SDA church seized that Madison farm, sold it off, put cash to waste and killed off that God way of healing and today in Nashville et al, is in Joint Ventures with the Catholic hospitals.

This is in Babylon, in my humble opinion, but God is my witness and its on His words I stand on.

So far no one has gainsayed God's truth, and instead they simply slander the truth sayers, so like the NY 2011 matter, the TRUTHERS can not be shutdown.

Sad but true. God will raise up his prophets and truth tellers, to wake the slumbering up and get them out of Babylong, whether Old SDA or not.

True Jew or Dog Vomit, its all in the Bible.

Dear mr. Warncken,
Hello,mynameiskatrina.howareyou?andrewandihopeyouarewell.
Wearebothinterestedinjoiningthesevendayadvetists,pleasetellusifthereisachurchinlauncestonthatwecanattend.thankyou.
Withloveandkindnesskatrinaandandrew.xxx

Dearjohn,
How are you.
Andrewandi are well we hope you are too.
Is there a church we can attend in launceston.
Please let us know.
Love and kindness,
Katrina andrewAnd mouse

Dear join,
Howareyou?andrewandiarewellwehopeyouaretoo.
Pleasessendemailto
Katrinagamble243@yahoo.com.au.

Yes there is. At the end of Church St Launceston. One of my best friends goes there.

.

Are you aware the sabbath sermons is not SDARM nor IMS? It is an independent organisation.

Can someone expand on IMSSDARM error in "doctrine of organization".

God bless

Amen

Can you please expand on IMS error in "doctrine of organizatio".

Amen

I am also interested in that part, IMSSDARM error in "doctrine of organization". Please forward if response came.

Amen

Xoli

My Brother, I am happy with your comment but can we converse about them? Maybe we can start with your first point. You are saying that Israel were rejected because of "But rather because they rejected the heaven sent message...". What was the message and where do you cite that? I hope its not Daniel 9:24-27. I am also on Facebook (xolisile mtyhida) we can also use that platform to share the light of the gospel.

Amen

Yoke-Fellow
Xoli

The IMSSDARM is the true SDA.

I was born in the SDA Church. When I was in my 30's I realized that the SDA church had rejected the doctrine of the nature of Christ as presented by Jones, Waggoner, Prescott, Sr. White, and about a hundred other contemporary church leaders, and adopted by the church in "The Established Faith of the Body," in 1889, p.98. At 43 I joined the Reform Movement (Roanoke) but after 10 years was disfellowshipped because they too had officially rejected the same doctrine and adopted the same new theology of the SDA church.
I then found the International Missionary Society Reform Movement and found that they still held to the 1888 message in it's entirety. Now my wife and I are members of the IMS and I can't seem to find the error on Organization as postulated by Maranatha. I have read Cramer's book against the IMS and Reform Movement but wasn't impressed with it since it contains a fair amount of misinformation. To me, a church that will publish a book with that much misinformation and present it to the people as if it was true demonstrates to me the spirit leading the church. If Maranatha can find the "error" in the doctrine of organization please feel free to email it to me at rickycheever@yahoo.com.
I have a hunch that just as the Cramer book showed me the spirit leading him, and the SDA Church that published it, the "errors" that Maranatha is referring to will probably be just as convincing as the Cramer book. But I look foreword to seeing the "evidence." And since I'm a member now of the IMS I think I am in a good position to do the fact checking that needs to be done to ascertain the truth.

Interesting view to depend on prophecy to decide when the SDA church has left the truth. When did the Christian church leave the truth? And how much truth does a church have to leave before it is considered to be in apostasy?

Hi,
I think you will find that the quote actually says that the truth will continue to the end, not that the church will never fall. And as a member of the IMS I too would like to hear the reasons alluded to about their being in error on "organization."
I heard the same thing about the Reform from Roanoke, of which I was a member for 10 years, and the IMS, that they didn't believe that the Holy Spirit was not a person but that He was just a power or an extension of the Father, as well as several other supposed errors. I was in a good position to fact check these claims and found that none of them were true.
The one error that the SDARM did have wasn't even brought up by Cramer, that they had joined the SDA church in accepting the new theology on the nature of Christ. But since Cramer had left the IMS to join the SDA church it doesn't surprise me that he would have left this out of his tirade since the SDARM and the SDA are in agreement on the subject. Eternal vigilance is our only safety. By the way, the IMS still hold to the 1888 message as given by Jones, Waggoner, Sr. White, Prescott, and nearly a hundred others of that time. See the book "The Word Was Made Flesh, 100 years of SDA Christology." If you don't have the book I can send you a copy via email. rickycheever@yahoo.com

In reference to your first question: Many Adventists have the same misunderstanding of the quote 'church never falls.' Here is the often misinterpreted quote which isn't speaking of the church but the truth of Gods word.
"Satan has laid every measure possible that nothing shall come among us as a people to reprove and rebuke us, and exhort us to put away our errors. But there is a people who will bear the ark of God. Some will go out from among us who will bear the ark no longer. But these cannot make walls to obstruct the truth; for it will go onward and upward to the end." TM 411.1

As to the second question: My wife and I were members of the Adventist church all our lives until we met the SDARM. We found that they were more in harmony with the Bible and SOP than the SDA church. However, like in the Adventist church, we still found ourselves at odds with the leadership on the issue of the Nature of Christ. And because we refused to abandon the position of Sr. White, Jones, Waggoner, Prescott, and the position of the General Conference of the SDA church as of 1889-1957, we were disfellowshipped.
We found that the IMSSDARM still held the same position on the Nature of Christ as Sr. White, Jones, Waggoner, Prescott, and the SDA church from 1889-1957. So we joined with them about 3 years ago. I'm not going to say that they have all the truth or are not holding some erroneous leanings, although I can say that they are fewer than the other two Adventist chuches mentioned (SDA and SDARM).
If you are interested in knowing their (IMSSDARM) position on the Nature of Christ look up these books that explain their understanding as well or better than anything that they themselves have printed. ("The Word was Made Flesh," by Ralph Larson, and "Touched with Our Feelings," by JR Zurcher).

I'm not sure where you get your info on the position of the SDARM on the Nature of Christ. Ask any of the General Conference, American Union, or Field officers if they are in harmony with the two books, "The Word Made Flesh," by Ralph Larson, and "Touched with Our Feelings," by JR Zurcher. These books clearly spell out Sr. Whites position, and the position of the Bible writers as well. I haven't been able to find but 2 ministers in the whole denomination who agree with Sr. Whites position, one is retired and they don't listen to him anymore, and the other is a younger minister who is afraid of losing his job if he preaches the subject with the power and emphasis the subject deserves. Happy hunting in your search for truth.

First, you should know your enemy before engaging him, otherwise you will loose the battle. I have belonged to both reforms and know their doctrines. Nowhere do they claim that the SDA church is Babylon. I don't know where you got your info but I advise you to do some fact checking before you dive into water.

In 1957 the SDA church published the book "Questions on Doctrine" to answer the charge of the evangelicals that the SDA church taught that Christ came to this earth as a man, with all the sinful tendencies that man is born with, to meet Satan with the same sinful flesh that every other child of Adam has to meet him in. The evangelicals had done their research carefully and thoroughly. So some of our theologians got together and wrote this book to convince the evangelicals that we believed like them, that Christ came to earth with a sinless nature.

“Although born in the flesh, He [Christ] was nevertheless
God, and was exempt from the inherited passions
and pollutions that corrupt the natural descendants
of Adam. He was ‘without sin,’ not only in His
outward conduct, but in His very nature.”—QD (1957),
383:1.
“These weaknesses, frailties, infirmities, failings are things which we, with our sinful, fallen natures, have to bear. To us they are natural, inherent, but when He bore them, He took them not as something innately His, but He bore them as our substitute. He bore them in His perfect, sinless nature. Again we remark, Christ bore all this vicariously, just as vicariously He bore the iniquities of us all. It is in this sense that all should understand the writings of Ellen G. White when she refers occasionally to sinful, fallen, and deteriorated human nature [which Christ had while on earth].”—QD (1957), 59:4-60:0.

You asked when the SDA church rejected the heaven sent message? There you have it. I suggest you read the whole chapter. Then read Davi Pai Silvas book, and other leaders of the SDARM. You will find that the SDARM leadership concur with QOD. Then compare what you find with these quotes.

"Was that holy thing which was born of the virgin Mary born in sinful flesh, and did that flesh have the same evil tendencies to contend with that ours does?"
A little thought will be sufficient to show anybody that if Christ took upon himself the likeness of man, in order that he might suffer death, it must have been sinful man that he was made like, for it is only sin that causes death… Moreover, the fact that Christ took upon himself the flesh, not of a sinless being, but of sinful man, that is, that the flesh which he assumed had all the weaknesses and sinful tendencies to which fallen human nature is subject, is shown by the very words upon which this article is based He was "made of the seed of David according to the flesh." David had all the passions of human nature. He says of himself, 'Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." PS 51:5. EJ Waggoner

"So you see that what the Scripture states very plainly is that Jesus Christ had exactly the same flesh that we bear — flesh of sin, flesh in which we sin, flesh, however, in which He did not sin, but He bore our sins in that flesh of sin." WW Prescott

"Now that law of heredity reached from Adam to the flesh of Jesus Christ as certainly as it reaches from Adam to the flesh of any of the rest of us; for He was one of us. In Him there were things that reached Him from Adam; in Him there were things that reached Him from David, from Manasseh, from the genealogy away back from the beginning until His birth.
Thus in the flesh of Jesus Christ, — not in Himself, but in His flesh, — our flesh which He took in the human nature, — there were just the same tendencies to sin that are in you and me. . . . And thus being in the likeness of sinful flesh, He condemned sin in the flesh. . . .
. . . That is simply saying that all the tendencies to sin that are in human flesh were in His human flesh, and not one of them was ever allowed to appear; He conquered them all. And in Him we all have victory over them all. . . ." AT Jones - GCB 1895 p. 266, col. 2, p. 267, col. 1

... He came in the "likeness of sinful flesh" (Rom. 8:3); was "made of the seed of David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3); was "made of a woman, made under the law" (Gal. 4:4); he "took not on him the nature of angels, but he took on him the seed of Abraham" (Heb. 2:16); in fact, "in all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted." Therefore, according to the word of truth, Jesus possessed the sinful flesh with all of its sinful and inherited tendencies to evil from Judah down. Therefore he can be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, as he was tempted even as we. Heb. 4:15. And Christ has power to help. He suffered being tempted, but it was always the suffering of travail; it brought forth fruit of righteousness. Men often suffer through temptation, the suffering of sin. Christ's suffering was the travail of righteousness. With sinful tendencies in his flesh, he never sinned, but "condemned sin (overthrew sin) in the flesh," a triumphant conqueror, first over sinful flesh, second over the results of sin, death. Rom. 8:3, 4. This is our Redeemer. He knows how to help; he is "mighty to save." ST, Sept. 16, 1889 SDA General Conference - The Established Faith of the Body 1889 page 98

And when the fullness of time was come, He stepped down from His throne of highest command, laid aside His royal robe and kingly crown, clothed His divinity with humanity, and came to this earth to exemplify what humanity must do and be in order to overcome the enemy and to sit with the Father upon His throne. Coming, as He did, as a man, with all the evil tendencies to which man is heir, He made it possible for Himself to be buffeted by human agencies inspired by Satan, to meet and be subjected to, the rebel who had been expelled from heaven, working in every conceivable manner to destroy his faith. EG White - Letter K-303, 1903

Has the SDA church turned it's back on the truth? Check the facts and speak the truth, don't just say what you have heard.