Health care is not a right.

Disparities exist in universal health care systems.

Then what is it? For profit off the backs of the sick and the dieing?

America is an advanced country and all the other countries of the planet look to America for leadership and to set the moral norm.
If America dissipates effort and scarce funding on healing the incapably sick and preventing the otherwise inevitable death of the pecuniarily deficient, it will set a poor precedent. The world is already overpopulated, we must not encourage other countries to make the situation worse by saving those who, for the greater good, should not be saved. That will only lead us all into a catastrophic quagmire from which there is no escape.
We interfere with the universal natural law of survival of the fittest at our peril. The Republicans of America are realists. They know what really matters. Let us also be aware the bible is irrelevant here because the problem of overpopulation did not exist in biblical times.
Morality must be viewed in terms of the morality of promoting the continuation of human life here on Earth against all other considerations. Mother Nature has never been proven wrong.
What time's breakfast?

How many people do you think will choose to spend 14 years of their life striving to do their best in undergraduate school then med school then residency, incurring sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans, and working 80 hour weeks as a resident, to be paid 100,000 dollars a year?

If you are adamant about your 100,000 dollars a year criterion and the 14 years of striving, then I am going to guess some figure between zero and seven.
(How close was I? )

It sounds good. But in practice there is a problem with the survival of the fittest.
There are 2.7 hospital beds per 1000 and less doctors per 1000.
There are 650.000 paper shuffling bean counting persons administering the money being gathered for U.S. health care who do not admiminister one pill,or make one bed.on an average slary of $65,000 per annum. Not forgetting profit paid out to share holders. like 2.4 billion.per year
These insurance companies are giving the representatives of the people (Government) $1.3 million per day as lobbyist's

When a pandemic arrives, The 2.7 beds will not cut it, any more than the 2.8 Doctors. The insured will not get any more preferential treatment than the un-insured. It will not be the survival of the fittest.
It will be the total collapse of an overloaded system.
In London, years ago, many property owners "insured" their property against FIRE. The insurers provided a fire call service, only to those buildings possesing coverage.
Trouble was, not all the property was covered. hence the greate fire of London.

This is the MOST horrible argument against universal health care I have EVER come across. I'm copying it and pasting it in a WORST ARGUMENTS EVER folder.

it's concepts like this that keep intelligent, rational, freedom loving Americans away from this extremely important issue.

Over population? the greater good? not be saved? are you kidding me? who are you...Stalin? Hitler? or are you just a drone spouting cr**?

If we defeat socialism and communism in the coming struggle, if everyone in the world is free to earn what they can, live where they want, how they want...if we can spread TRUE FREEDOM, then universal health care will be reality.
Health is NOT a right.
No one can be FORCED to be healthy nor should anyone be forced to pay for someone Else's health.
what IS a right is pursuit of happiness and personal wealth. IF we could just get more wealthy people around the world, we'd have more healthy people around the world. and here's a bit of news, you don't have to be rich to be wealthy, you just have to have a little extra money. The GC/GS don't want you to know that.
only communist/socialist cranks believe we can't all be free, wealthy,HEALTHY and happy.

Dawn

I have heard the republican objection to the idea of "ENFORCED HEALTH INSURANCE CONTRIBUTIONS"
as being the cross they will not bare.
What is their opinion on "ENFORCED VEHICLE DRIVER INSURANCE"?
I guess they won't mind being infected by a fully insured pandemic victim?
The Health Insurance industry has been spending $1.3 million per day on Lobbying our government representatives in order to maintain the Status Quo.
The savings on the removal of this profit making "bean counting complex" which only provides WELNESS to their wallets. would free up some revenue in the most inefficient health system in the western world.
A value added tax on certain health destroying substances would solve the monetary problem.
There was a time when the entire UK health service was financed by tax gathered from liquor and tobacco sales.
The health Insurance and Pharmaceutical companies are taking the US public to the cleaners, Not forgetting the non capped limits which provoke greedy lawyers. The system is broken.

GF

GF,
First, let me assure you I'm neither republican nor conservative.
I do think that the American system needs reform on many fronts, that capitalism in regards to insurance company profits has become a train running over individuals every day, and that we should have some kind of public system working in conjunction with a carefully monitored private system that includes all those who cannot afford private coverage.

I further think that anyone who signs up for such a public health system should give up their freedom of choice in the matters of their personal health. No one should have to pay for anyone Else's bad personal choices or behavior. Preventative medicine should become mandatory for all those in the public healthcare system and those that refuse to participate should be dropped.

pretty radical huh.

Okay, as far as the car insurance: I personally find forced insurance coverage abhorrent. I have petitioned several times to my state that, if they want to mandate I carry insurance, then they should provide insurance either free or as part of the taxes I already pay.They state that driving is a priviledge not a necessity.They will pay for nothing while forcing me too.
My next challenge to the law will come from that direction; that in an area such as the one I live in, where traveling large distances to do something as vital as purchase food and receive medical care is required, having a car is a must. If they insist I carry insurance for said car, the insurance should be offered publicly or paid for with tax credits. If I succeed, I imagine you will hear about it because it will change law.

I don't personally carry insurance except when forced to account for it while re-licensing my vehicle. I don't want to go to jail. It's cowardice I know but everyone fails somewhere. :)

I am not wealthy and cannot justify the expense of even basic coverage all the time. I believe this is my choice. Others find my reaction fool hardy and politically incorrect.
You should also know that my state has 'no fault' coverage. If I am in an accident, I pay for the damage to my car. The other driver(s) pay for their own damage. In situations where I( my insurance) would pay for the damage I caused the other car if I were at fault, I would consider carrying insurance necessary and comply. I pray my state stays 'no fault'.

I pretty much feel the same way about forced health care as I feel about forced car insurance. I also don't like the concept that I can't know what's in this bill until it's passed and that it will spend money that America simply doesn't have.
I'm not against health care, I'm against not understanding EXACTLY how this will affect my country and more government spending without accountability.
we didn't have accountability in the stimulus package and look where that got us.
I'm a big proponent of thinking and understanding. I know you are too.

freedom is everything and diversity is divine

Dawn

PS: I DO carry what health insurance I can afford for myself and my children. I have personally experienced the flaws in the system as my daughter who is deaf, is denied coverage as a preexisting condition case. (Her deafness was diagnosed in her second year of life) This has prevented me from changing carriers to get better rates for more services. I am self employed (a writer of novels) and have no alternative except Medicare which I refuse to use on principle. (I get a lot of flack about that as well)
I just got her digital hearing aids which the entire family saved for with odd jobs, collecting cans, and the sale of a piece of heirloom jewelery. The hearing aids cost over seven thousand dollars. The insurance I pay for and am tied to like Perseus to the cliff, only covered 1500, the price of crappy, cheap analogue ones which didn't allow her to hear the beauty of bird songs (among other things), if you can imagine. There are better policies out there that won't take us.
See, I get both sides.

Dawn.
I have never called you a republican. I merely mentioned their grievance on providing health care to the "non deserving" That's why these selfish thoughtless, indigent individuals should be obliged to pay something toward their present and future health needs, instead of which, they are marching into the emergency rooms of hospitals, instead of laying down in the street to cadaverize. The hospital emergency room has become the National health service of the USA. That's why those who have insurance pay extremely dearly when they need treatment. I was charged over $2000 per day when I was hospitalized, and that was ten years ago.
Those who prefer the status Quo offer the following objections to a national health service:

Our taxes will go through the roof.
We will have to queue up for treatment like in Canada, where they are dying like flies
There will be death panels disqualifying us from treatment because of pre existing conditions, like age.

A relative of mine in her 80's had each knee and one hip replacement together with a successful procedure for throat cancer, She did not have to wait for treatment, it did not cost her a penny, since then she has been able vacation in Egypt, Mexico, Spain and here in Florida. in three years time she will be 100 years old. Thanks to the UK National Health Service.

There are hard working, deserving Americans going bankrupt in order to stay alive. Some have been dropped by their insurers. some are paying half their income to the insurance companies.
Private insurance companies such as those that exist in Europe can still exist and provide the Cadillac services that some desire.
There are 630,000 health insurance "bean counters" to support at an average salary of $62,000 each , none of whom, dispense even one aspirin toward health care. The gigantic profits being made by health insurance companies are surely being invested in the pharmaceutical companies to further screw the public.
The days of employer participation with health care insurance is fast fading,
If you compared the tax you pay to a European you might find it 10% lower , then add your health insurance and co pays and pharm costs, you are far worse off, that's just before you get dropped.

GF

GF,
well said. I have no argument. I have never experienced the health care system in the UK or Canada and can offer nothing intelligent on either.

The only thing I would like to point out,(I have no direct proof of what I'm about to say but I could dig some up)the capital based system in American healthcare leads to far more research into bigger, better, stronger, faster stuff than a socialized system does. Now I'm not saying that there is no research or poor research in the aforementioned countries. No need for a blaze of defensive facts. I'm simply saying that when research leads to wealth, more research will be done. Altruism is NOT a natural state of human beings, as I'm certain you know, and even if the laws and rules are designed to be altruistic, they can't force this state of being on anyone. (I believe the USSR tried that)

I would support a socialized public system working in conjunction with a capitalized system but I am thoroughly against any system which eliminates capitalism from higher medicine. We MUST reward researchers and doctors who work 'on the edge' and think 'outside the box'.

while the multiple joint replacement story is wonderful, such things are hardly cutting edge, especially for a nice old lady in her eighties. Joint replacement for young athletes is a different can of worms entirely and THAT is the cutting edge of that field.
How many successful joint replacements for athletes where they could maintain their sport at the highest level they can personally achieve have socialized systems done?
America hasn't quite hit that goal yet but the research in the area is furious. The doc(s) who finally achieve it will be millionaires overnight. This spurs some pretty hot and heavy competition in the field and that is good.

Bottom line: I would LOVE to help everyone with insurance and access problems but I don't want to sacrifice what is good about the system.

Dawn

DAMN!!!

I am interested in for many years, and examines the various countries of the world Universal Health Care systems. Immediately I can tell you the conclusion that the World is NOT between two identical Universal Health Care systems. In each Country it is different, as there are different Countries level of development, culture and yet a lot of other factors.
Many countries developed their own Universal Health Care systems for many decades until they become so they are now. It can be concluded, that both the USA when setting up your Universal Health Care will go a long way to go before it can boast its own built top - level system
The creation of a Universal Health Care system should be aligned with many very difficult compatible things - if health services will be for all residents, and then the inevitable increase in the taxes for which no one wants to pay more and will be even more similar problems. By the way, here is the information that is useful for anyone interested in Universal Health Care problems. I find not a lot time ago and often use a resource http://www.universalhealthcareadvice.com/, where you'll find very much information about all of the Universal Health Care system issues in one place. This is a very significant resource.