Christianity
The Myth of Eternal Life
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Masada007
The Myth of Eternal Life

That's a pagan myth that has invaded modern religions as to make people wish to live again. Only in a way it is good because it helps people to behave in a way that will enhance their hope to live forever. But eternal life is an attribute that belongs with God only. The rest of us will all die because of the fact that we have been born. We are matter, and matter is under the law of genesis and destruction. I mean, birth and death.

How do we know that the attribute of eternal life is not within the reach of man? The answer is found in the allegory of the Tree of Life. According to Genesis 3:22,23 Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden for precisely that reason. They could not eat from the tree of life and live forever. That was the way to say that the attribute of eternal life had not been granted to man.

But then again, according to Genesis 2:9, the Lord God had caused to grow from the ground all kinds of trees good for food. But the tree of life He planted in the middle of the Garden just beside the tree of knowledge, which He had forbidden Adam to eat from or even approach to. Adam did as he had been told and besides the tree of knowledge, the tree of life had not been touched upon. But since Intellect, which is the attribute of knowledge, was granted to man, why was it forbidden to eat from the tree of knowledge?

The prohibition to eat from the tree of knowledge, then, was a catch-22; apparently an illogical rule to enhance man's curiosity. But Adam had taken God's command seriously. Typical of the religious Jewish man. Then, according to Gennesis 2:22, God created the woman, who would take man to the tree of knowledge. And before they ate from the tree of life, they were cast out of the Garden of Eden. They had acquired the attribute of knowledge and denied the attribute of eternal life.

Now, since no man is supposed to die for another, but every one for his own iniquities, according to Jeremiah 31:30, the attribute of eternal life could by no other means be granted. Nevertheless, the myth continues to be preached up to this day under the pretense of Christian redemption, which is possible only by blind faith.
Ben
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J316
Replied to:  The Myth of Eternal Life That's a pagan myth that...
By reading your post it appears that you know alot of scripture from the bible...but there is one scripture that sheds a whole new "light" to your myth theory:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have EVERLASTING LIFE...
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Masada007
Replied to:  By reading your post it appears that you know alot of...

Hey, J316, this quote from the NT attributed to John was written by a Hellenist Gentile, former disciple of Paul,
with the intent to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement
Theology. Besides, John was an unlearned and ignorant man, according to Acts 4:13. Illiterate people do not write books. Besides, believing in Jesus or not, every one perishes. This is a strong evidence that proves Genesis 3:22
as a fact, that man could not live forever. And according to
Malachi 3:6, "I am the Lord; I change not." God is not like a man to change His mind. Why would Jesus contradict God's own Word?
Ben
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Yoda55
Replied to:  Hey, J316, this quote from the NT attributed to John...
If you'll examine the verses which precede Genesis 3:22 (Genesis 2:15-17), please notice that God told Adam that he was permitted to partake from any tree of the garden EXCEPT one of the two at the center - the tree of 'the knowledge of good and evil'. This means that Adam could take from the tree of life, and enjoy spirit (immortality). Adam was admonished that he 'would surely die' if partaking from the forbidden tree. In his perfect condition within the garden, and partaking of the perfect food which was contained within the garden, Adam was not constrained to a finite, mortal lifespan with death at the end. Death was not assured if he followed the instruction.

If Adam had partaken from the 'tree of life', then he'd be *assured* immortality. But, this presents a dilemma should he have partaken of the forbidden AFTER the life (spirit form).

Lucifer (Satan) was spirit (life immortal) and sinned by his pride of self over God. Satan has no resolution to his problem - his fate is sealed. What happens to spirit if the spirit dies? It doesn't transition a soul from spirit to spirit. It's already spirit. The death of spirit would be non-existence (if spirit is terminated). If the spirit form is eternal, then Satan is stuck being eternally opposed to God (and condemned to separation).

God was protecting Adam by driving him out of the garden and not allowing him to continue in the garden (eventually to eat from the tree of life) after his disobedience. Man has hope of a reconciliation with God. But, he must first shed the old (the 'contaminated') life.
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silverglass
Replied to:  The Myth of Eternal Life That's a pagan myth that...
Concerning the Myth of eternal life.
Have you not read?
Mark 12:24-30
New International Version (NIV)
24 Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25 When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 26 Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’[a]? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”
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silverglass
Replied to:  The Myth of Eternal Life That's a pagan myth that...
Concerning Redemptive Theology.
Biblical theology within the conservative view understands that revelation moves from law to grace through the biblical narrative up to the full and final revelation of grace in the Son.
For the law was given through Moses but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. Insofar as one understands this concept then one should understand that verses contained the old covenant like the Jeremiah 31:30 passage were incomplete in the redemptive story of salvation as grace was yet to be revealed in its complete form. It is no longer valid!
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silverglass
Replied to:  The Myth of Eternal Life That's a pagan myth that...
How do we know that the attribute of eternal life is not within the reach of man? The answer is found in the allegory of the Tree of Life. According to Genesis 3:22,23 Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden for precisely that reason. They could not eat from the tree of life and live forever. That was the way to say that the attribute of eternal life had not been granted to man.

It should be noted that eternal life in the Garden of Eden before the fall was in a sinless state. It is understood by the majority of conservative scholars that eating from the tree of life in a sinful state carried with it the idea of living forever in a sinful state of which the text implies. The curse of death insured that we had a way out of that predicament and eventually God would provide a way back through the cross, that is back to eternal life in a sinless state. My belief is that God did not want use to live forever in sin. I know I would not want to live forever in my sinful state. Would you?
I believe you should endeavor to understand the concept of sanctification, as it is the procedure by which God begins to deliver us from our sinful state in this life and completes it after death by fully delivering us from sin.
Sanctification:
Sanctify means to set apart for sacred use.In addition,to consecrate. Sanctification consists of separating all that is not good. It means also holiness.
There are three types of sanctification: positional sanctification, personal sanctification and final sanctification.
First, when we accept Jesus by receiving the baptism of water and Spirit, we are sanctified by the faith in Jesus, this is positional sanctification. In Jesus Christ, we are sanctified like the saints of God. “Now we are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and by the Spirit of our God.” ( 1st Corinthians 6 : 11 ). “He might sanctify and cleanse the church with the washing of water by the word”.( Ephesians 5 : 26 ).
Second, after being sanctified by the faith, we have to observe the law of God be sanctified like the Lord. For “As he which hath called you is holly, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.” ( 1st Corinthians 6 : 11 ).
Third, the final sanctification makes us alike of God, it is the perfection. This, has been spoken by Paul tells us, “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” Sanctification has to be total. It concerns our body, our soul and our spirit. “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” ( 1st Thessalonians 5 : 23).
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Yoda55
Replied to:  How do we know that the attribute of eternal life is...
Silverglass,

Well said!
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fullyinformed
Replied to:  The Myth of Eternal Life That's a pagan myth that...
I hope there is eternal life. I wish that some of those who had died, could say to people who are still here, about some of the things that everyone is getting wrong. They will know some of it. For example organ donors-
are they suffering during the operation?
they exhibit a stress response as if they are, their blood pressure rises, their heart beat rises, and they are given muscle control to stop them moving on the operating table so that surgury can continue, see facebook page/wall-
organ donors are not dead, or/and
look it up on the internet, see what doctors are trying to get through to prospective organ donors, that the medical profession is not telling you.

Etnernal life, I hope so, but the bible as you say does not prove it. I wish that God would come and help people. There is so many terrible things happening on this planet.
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Jet3
Replied to:  The Myth of Eternal Life That's a pagan myth that...
As Fr. Benedict Groeschel often said and wrote, eternal life is a hope rather than a certainty. The idea of eternal life has the support of many of the finest minds who ever lived. What is missing in the question is an understanding of the nuanced differences between faith and reason. Most of us assume we understand reason, but most of us are almost totally ignorant about faith and God's grace. The asker should look deeply into faith and grace before blinding rejecting the idea of eternal life.
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Masada007
Replied to:  If you'll examine the verses which precede Genesis 3:22 (Genesis 2:15-17),...
I did examine the verses you have suggested above and I came
to the conclusion that your post is purely a speculative attempt to refute the truth that man was not meant to live forever. There is nowhere saying that God told Adam, "... except one OF THE TWO at the center." It means that you have failed to document your opinion.

Yes, Adam was said that if they ate of the tree of knowledge, he would surely die. Did they die when they ate of the tree of knowledge? No, they didn't. It means that the commandment was a catch-22, which means that it was to be obeyed on the opposite of the command itself.

When they were banished from the Garden for the reason that they should not eat of the tree of life is more than a logical explanation that they could not have eternal life.

Regarding Satan or Lucifer, there is no such a thing. According to Judaism, Satan is only a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man. Just an evil emanation.

The whole Genesis account of Creation is nothing else but an allegory for the granting of attributes. Intellect which was given and eternal life which was denied.

Ben
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replied to:  silverglass
Masada007
Replied to:  Concerning the Myth of eternal life. Have you not read? Mark...
Right! God is not the god of the dead, but of the living. And you are mistaken for concluding that I am the one. Somehow, perhaps on the basis of your Christian preconceived
notions, you are not focused on the meaning of that truth
given to Moses by God. It means that God is indeed the God of the living; those in the present life, and not of those with no life at all. It also means that God has nothing to do with the dead but with the living only. If Jesus had elaborated further, his listeners would have got the answer I have given to you today.
Ben
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Masada007
Replied to:  Concerning Redemptive Theology. Biblical theology within the conservative view understands that...
As I can see, you are a loyal follower of the Pauline policy
of Replacement Theology, who operated within the Logic that,
with the change in the priesthood by Jesus, a change in the Law was necessary. (Heb. 7:7)
Ben
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Masada007
Replied to:  How do we know that the attribute of eternal life is...
You say above that "Jesus provided a back to eternal life in a sinless state." Didn't Jesus die? Yes, so, he had no immortal life, either sinfully or sinlessly. Has any one, since Jesus has been gone, ever lived forever? The answer is no. Therefore, Genesis 3:22 remains true. Man was prevented to eat from the tree of life for the reason that it was not meant for him to live forever.

And for your question of "how do I know that it is not within the reach of man to achieve eternal life," the answer is in the Torah. (Genesis 3:22) As simple as that, without any need of further speculations.
Ben
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Masada007
Replied to:  I hope there is eternal life. I wish that some of...
Your hope that eternal life could be true is human and natural. Who wants to die? By denying man eternal life, God only showed Divine wisdom. Imagine eternal life for humans who get easily bored even of an easy life? It must be terrible. At least, relatively, I mean, with the option to change one's mind after a few thousand years, it could be an
option worthy considering. But eternity, without end and without the option to change one's mind, thank you but no, thanks.

Besides, the condition to serve God for the reward of eternal life is an attempt to bribe God by taking Him as no different from the Greek gods in the Olympian Pantheon of Greek Mythology.

It also reminds me of Paul's bribing of God, when he said that, if the dead won't resurrect, let us eat and drink for tomorrow we die. (I Cor. 15:32) That's conditional loyalty worthy menstrual rags. Sorry for the crudity.
Ben
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Masada007
Replied to:  As Fr. Benedict Groeschel often said and wrote, eternal life is...
IMHO, the message that you are trying to covey with this post of yours above is that faith is a concept one can use to neutralize what is written, even in the Word of God. I mean, that before adopting what is written about any Divine deliberation, one ought to look deeply into faith and grace
before accepting what is written. In other words, that's possible for the faithful to dodge from what has been predicted.
Ben
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Yoda55
Replied to:  I did examine the verses you have suggested above and I...
Look back a bit further (Gen 2:8-9). There were two (read it again TWO) particular trees mentioned, in the *center of the Garden*:
(1) The "tree of life"
(2) The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"

The second was the only one forbidden to Adam and Eve. That means they were permitted to eat of the "tree of life". While in the Garden, Adam and Eve were not subject to death. Death was declared as a state of their existence when they were expelled from the Garden (consequence/penalty of sin)... They did die (not immediately upon eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, as you seem to want to infer), but they did die - you haven't met them running around anywhere recently, have you? Excepting the declining lifespans described for the lineage stemming from Adam and Eve (Gen 11), no one is living past ~120 years.

It's not a catch-22. And, it was said as straight forward as it's recorded.

Regarding Satan, there are a couple of questions I need to ask you:
(1) Do you personally espouse the Sadducee concept of Judaism?
(2) Do you recognise the Book of Enoch as a reference used by Judaism to (supplement) chronicle events not described in the books which Moses contributed?
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Ben007Masada
Replied to:  Look back a bit further (Gen 2:8-9). There were two (read...
Yes, there were two trees, which were both planted side by side in the midst of the Garden. (Gen. 2:9) When the prohibition was proclaimed not to eat of the tree of knowledge, Adam, just like the typical Jew, wouldn't even dare to approach the center of the Garden. Therefore, the tree of life was also, obviously, kept out of man's view.

The whole thing is allegorical; so, we can speculate that when Eve was tempted by the serpent, this chose the tree of knowledge as the place for the conversation. It is obvious that it was by then that they became aware of the tree of life. But before they had time to follow suit with the tree of life, the Lord banished them from the Garden of Eden. (Gen. 3:22)
Ben
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Yoda55
Replied to:  Yes, there were two trees, which were both planted side by...
Ben,
Thanks for acknowledging Gen 2:9, which is coupled to my 20-SEP post.

You wrote: "When the prohibition was proclaimed not to eat of the tree of knowledge, Adam, just like the typical Jew, wouldn't even dare to approach the center of the Garden."

Are you suggesting that he was Jewish? The faith/heritage of Hebrews didn't begin until Abraham listened to God, and was granted a covenant. Adam's as Jewish as I am, and I'm a relative of Japheth (Noah's son).

Since you appear to think that the Adam described is allegorical, then where did you receive your "breath of God" to become a living soul - coming from the spirit of God, therefore being spirit which is not tied to the mortality of the body (a consequence of the disobedience in the Garden)?

If you ascribe to Hebrew faith, then what significance do you see to Abraham being called out of Ur and traveling to Canaan?

BTW, you didn't answer my two questions...why?
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Ben007Masada
Replied to:  Ben, Thanks for acknowledging Gen 2:9, which is coupled to my...
No, I am not suggesting that Adam was Jewish. I said "just like the typical Jew." This does not mean he was Jewish.
That's a simile.

I received the "breath of God" to become a living soul when I was born. The whole Genesis account of Creation is an allegory. Do you know what I mean?

There was no disobedience in the Garden. The disobedience of Adam was rather his procrastination to reach for the tree
of knowledge and eat of its fruit. The command had been a catch-22.

The calling to Abraham out of Ur was his finding of the real
God, Creator of the universe. That's when Monotheism had started. That's when Judaism had its beginning.
Ben
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replied to:  Ben007Masada
Yoda55
Replied to:  No, I am not suggesting that Adam was Jewish. I said...
Ben007Masada wrote: "The calling to Abraham out of Ur was his finding of the real God, Creator of the universe. That's when Monotheism had started. That's when Judaism had its beginning."

First sentence - True. He was seeking what God had told him.

Second sentence - False. Monotheism was evident in Noah, and he pre-dated Abraham. He was obedient to a single voice.

Third sentence - True. Abraham was the foundation *after* the flood, the re-establishment of those who recognized a single God.
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Ben007Masada
Replied to:  Ben007Masada wrote: "The calling to Abraham out of Ur was his...
And I can't agree with you more. BTW, thanks for the enlightenment.

Ben
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Yoda55
Replied to:  And I can't agree with you more. BTW, thanks for the...
But, here's the thing that'll really curl your hair - Noah wasn't the first monotheist, either... Adam was.
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replied to:  Ben007Masada
Yoda55
Replied to:  No, I am not suggesting that Adam was Jewish. I said...
Ben007Masada wrote: "There was no disobedience in the Garden. The disobedience of Adam was rather his procrastination to reach for the tree of knowledge and eat of its fruit. The command had been a catch-22."

First sentence - False. Disobedience occurred in the Garden, right at the moment Eve took the first fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Both were expulsed from the Garden *after* the transgression "within" the Garden.

Second sentence - False. There is nothing in the text to suggest that he had a secret craving for it. The lack of information suggests that Adam was fine with the way things were, up until Eve offerred him a choice of life with or without her. He chose "with", placing her over God in his priorities.

Third sentence - False. God doesn't work in "catch-22" events. He's always left a method for Adam (and us) to escape the situation which places us at odds with Him. Often, we're not discerning enough to recognize the alternative (or too focused on the attraction of the transgression to notice).
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Ben007Masada
Replied to:  But, here's the thing that'll really curl your hair - Noah...
Seriously, Abraham was the first monotheist. The accounts about Adam and Noah are allegories, which represent the Jesish contribution to the cultures of the time about creation and the Flood. Going that back to prove something is to be too literal with the Scriptures where things are called for metaphorical interpretation.

Ben
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Ben007Masada
Replied to:  Ben007Masada wrote: "There was no disobedience in the Garden. The disobedience...
Yoda, Adam and Eve were not banished from the Garden of Eden because they ate of the tree of knowledge but to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. (Gen. 3:22) If you don't quote what you say, I'll stay with what the Scripture says. And there was no transgression of any law because, according to Hosea 4:6, people die for lack of knowledge and not from acquiring knowledge.

The second sentence is not false because I said nothing about a secret craving for the it.

And the third sentence is not false. Perhaps you do not understand what a catch-22 is. Read this:

THE LORD'S CATCH-22

According to a certain midrash reported by Thomas Mann in his book "Joseph and his Brothers," after a while that Abraham had arrived in Canaan, from his country and folks in Ur of the Chaldeans, he was deeply impressed about the deep love with which the Canaanites would love their gods as to offer their firstborn son in a burn sacrifice. Abraham would go frustrate to think that he could not express his love for Elohim in such a dramatic way.

As Abraham would try to chew that paradox in his mind, he fell asleep and had a dream. Elohim would identify Himself thus: I am Molech, bull-king of the baalites and command you to bring your firstborn son Isaac and offer him in a burn sacrifice to Me. As Abraham set about to do so, the Lord said, "How dare you! Am I Molech bull-king of the baalites? I expected you to know much better. What I have commanded, I did not command so that you would do it, but that you might learn that you should not do it; because it is nothing but an abomination in My sight, instead; and don't confuse the practices of the Gentiles with the People you will sire. Behold a ram; offer it instead.

Another example for the Lord's Catch-22, is found in the tieing of Ulysses by his subjects on a pole in the ship to prevent him from harming himself into jumping into the sea as he would get captivated by the Siren songs. No matter his commands to his subjects to untie himself, they would not obey him till the danger was over. At the end, he would gratefully thank them for not having obeyed him. That's what a Catch-22 is, a command that must be obeyed in the opposite way of the command itself.

Ignorance is an abomination in the Lord's sight. When Adam and Eve were forbidden to eat of the tree of knowledge, it was the Lord's catch-22 to rather enhance man's appetite for the tree of knowledge. If the prohibition were to be observed, the fruit of that tree would not have been so enticing and the tree would not have been planted in the center of the garden to call the attention of all. And the Lord would not have employed the services of the serpent to explain that they had misunderstood the command which had been meant to be rather the opposite. As Adam and Eve realized what the Lord really meant, the abomination of ignorance had been neutralized. And they were saved because, rather for lack of knowledge, my People perish. (Hosea 4:6)

Ben
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Yoda55
Replied to:  Seriously, Abraham was the first monotheist. The accounts about Adam and...
That's an interesting comment, because the Hebrew pre-occupation with lineage takes great pains to show no breaks (and no irregularities in heritage). Moses makes a very definitive list of generations from Adam to King David to King Solomon and so on (tracing authority within the nation), even going so far as to list lifespans.

Luke, for benefit of potential Gentile believers, uses his exposure to Paul in assisting in tracing the generations from Jesus back to Adam. Some folks have pointed out that the list lengths are mismatched (Luke's being longer than Moses'). If Moses was just hitting the "highlights" (notable figures), then one could suppose that the Hebrews knew the missing entries and could fill them in at will... If Luke's list is inclusive, then the previous statement would be confirmed.

Some content is literal, and some is figurative. To be absolutely certain which is which requires a key (the Holy Spirit) to guide the interpretation. Those observers not so gifted must look to the entire range of possibles, in order to compare and contrast - thus eliminating those alternatives which clearly contradict the underlying theme of the Testaments.
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Yoda55
Replied to:  Yoda, Adam and Eve were not banished from the Garden of...
Ben007Masada wrote: "Yoda, Adam and Eve were not banished from the Garden of Eden because they ate of the tree of knowledge but to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. (Gen. 3:22) If you don't quote what you say, I'll stay with what the Scripture says. And there was no transgression of any law because, according to Hosea 4:6, people die for lack of knowledge and not from acquiring knowledge."

- The Garden of Eden was a source of all sustenance that Adam and Eve would require. Nourishment for the body, opportunity of immortality, communing with God, and choice for knowledge (which if selected, *all* knowledge must be divulged). Failure to receive *all* knowledge imposes bias and ends in misleading conclusions. Truth is only maintained when all elements that support the conclusion must be true (Boolean AND table)... The couple had no need to leave Eden if they were to remain in grace.
- Hosea was admonishing the kings of Israel (10 northern tribes) against their compromising of faith by pagan contamination. The pagan idols provide no *knowledge* bacause they are manmade (of dead materials), as God points out. The continuance of unveiling knowledge was only meant to be from Him, since Man had already started down the path...
- I disagree with the Law conclusion. Law is whatever guidance God provides to Man, which carries an obligation of obedience (to be coupled with consequential punishment for disobedience). See Gen 2:16-17. If that isn't Law, then I don't know what is! Adam and Eve disobeyed. That satisfied the imposition of consequence punishment. Man would not be allowed immortality, while in his sinful condition.

Catch-22 is the title of a book (and a movie) which are not defined as you impose it. The author wrote the relationship as follows (paraphrased): In order to be considered mentally unbalanced (which would disqualify the service member from flying combat missions) the member had to submit a form requesting disqualification based upon mental incapacity. The very act of submitting the form contradicts the member's claimed condition, and the member is therefore ineligible for disqualification.

You use Abraham and Isaac as your example. I find the order to Abraham to contain the following qualities.
(1) God already knows what Abraham will do, therefore the order is meant for Abraham to measure how much he trusts God (having been given a son, and imminent liklihood of God rescinding the gift). Abraham's faith in God knowing *what's best* was the question tested, and Abraham had to commit everything he was/is/would become to that of following God. The order was explicit, and quoted by Moses. If Moses is misrepresenting God's intent and actions, then the Genesis testament is false and to be ignored.
(2) God showed Abraham that it isn't His intent to bless, and then punish when no sin required Abraham to be admonished. God demonstrated His constancy, and provided a substitute (the ram in the thornbush) so that the order (Gen 22:2) of sacrifice could be completed (obeyed).

The Testaments are repleat with commands which God issued. Your contention that He wants the opposite to be Man's behavior is contradicted by the punishments (admonishments) which God issues in response to Man's actions.

God doesn't want to hurt anyone. He prefers to provide blessings, in recognition for faithfulness and obedience. The position of His desiring the disobedience points to a God who is *not* a loving and caring Creator. It smacks of the arbitrary Master concept held by Islam... I hope that's not what you're saying.
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Ben007Masada
Replied to:  Ben007Masada wrote: "Yoda, Adam and Eve were not banished from the...
Sory Yoda, but I do not agree with you that there was any opportunity of immortality in the Garden of Eden. My pragmatism is too strong for me to accommodate faith and accept something that lacks all logic. The text that talks about the banishment of man from the Garden was a simile in the allegory of Creation to explain that the attribute of immortality could not be granted to man. That's why they had
to leave the Garden in order not to eat of the tree of life and live forever. Why? Because man had been born; by sheer nature he had to die. Only the One Who had no beginning was not subject to death. God, that is.

Ben
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Ben007Masada
Replied to:  That's an interesting comment, because the Hebrew pre-occupation with lineage takes...
As we were granted with free will, I don't think God, aka the Holy Spirit, intevenes with man's interpretation of the
Scriptures. This is for us to use our own intellect to go for the Truth were it may be found. The only problem is pre-
conceived notions, which define the way to the Truth. Then,
what ends up to be the Truth for someone is not the same as for another.

Ben
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Yoda55
Replied to:  Sory Yoda, but I do not agree with you that there...
Sorry to hear you disagree... But you may want to re-examine Genesis 2:15-17...

When God said "you shall surely die", did He mean from the disobedience (associated with the eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil)?

The implication of the text statement is that death was contingent upon disobedience. Since there is NO TEXT to indicate otherwise, then you must conclude that the disobedience would be the instigation of "death" as a punishment. Life, tending the Garden, was not contingent upon death. Hence immortality.

Or, did He mean that Adam would be killed faster, by doing this?

Let's entertain your claim of initial Adam mortality, for the moment... The verse makes no sense - Adam would die anyway. What weight would that carry with Adam, if he already knew his condition was mortal. Was it an empty threat? God doesn't make empty statements. Or, did God mean that Adam's soul would die, from disobedience? That presupposes an immortal soul inhabiting a mortal body.

But, you claim that there is no soul separate of the body. So, which is it: (1) an immortal Adam sinning and becoming mortal (body and soul inseparable), or (2) Adam with an immortal soul inhabiting a mortal body? Only one is true.

By the way, your statement "man had been born" is incorrect. Adam had not been born - he was formed. There was no mother to bear him... Eve was not Adam's mother, since she post-dated him... So, Adam was not "born" as we commonly refer to the act.
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replied to:  Ben007Masada
Yoda55
Replied to:  As we were granted with free will, I don't think God,...
We are given the ability to reason. In order to do so, we cannot be constrained. Otherwise, the evidence of poor reasoning would not be evident - to teach the lesson.

"Free Will" is the gift of the ability to exercise the full reasoning capacity possible in the limited human brain (and, includes the responsibility imposed by choice).

If you are given a piece of textual material to read and understand, then do you understand it best by making assumption about the author's intent (even if those assumptions are wrong)? Or, is the lesson best learned when the author explains His intent and assumptions?... I pick the latter.

Ben007Masada wrote: "Then, what ends up to be the Truth for someone is not the same as for another."

NOW, you sound like an atheist, falling back on relative morality. It doesn't work to build a society (which mankind live within). It implodes on itself, because any mismatch in moralities (between any two individuals) cannot be reconciled unless there is an absolute standard (by which BOTH will abide). If the whole of mankind is to live together without strife, then all must ascribe to a common standard of behavior (absolute, when it applies to all members of the set).
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