Render unto Caesar and all that happy stuff

why not tax them...more wealth to redistribute as we march toward utopia, right?

personally, I'm no fan of any organized religion except when its just a bunch of people getting together to pray...but, there's no money involved with THAT situation so...nothing to interest you or the tax man you keep in your nice little red pocket

true freedom is funny that way. You can tax the churches out of existence, but you can't get rid of God or keep me from praying...must be annoying

andrew...who's in charge in your little fantasy world? who's running the system that's going to save us all from ourselves?

are you certain that everyone in charge of this Utopian paradise vision is as good, as well intentioned, as you?

what happens if they aren't?

do you hear them saying...this will work this time, because We can fix it...and wonder...what were the plans of the people who last attempted to achieve this paradise?

how many eggs will YOU need to break andrew?

Dawn

Umm... I didn't say we should tax them out of existence, we should just tax them like any other business. You can still pray if that makes you feel like you're will get a pat on the head from some almighty spirit.

If you took a good look at the world around you, you would see many people that need help. They can't make it in this world and what it has become. In some families, the major breadwinner has a job at McDonalds. Thats their only income.

I have no utopia paradise vision and I can't see how you can draw that conclusion from anything I said.

see you around.

I never said YOU wanted to tax churches out of existence...eh, whatever

:::::sigh::::

so, it's whose responsibility to make sure everyone has a job and food and a nice house and all that good stuff?
who is providing this for them?

the fact is, Andrew, that there are already free things set up in this system that provide for education, training, support like food and shelter. The welfare system will even buy you clothing in some states or at least provide you money to buy clothing.
the people working at McDonald's are usually the people that have ignored their education, squandered all the free stuff already given to them and now eagerly await more handouts.

perhaps they can all be employed by the govt...that will give them everything you want them to have.

Andrew...library cards are free and thus, so is the knowledge of the world, all that's required is application and effort.

why just today I went on the web and learned the basics of repairing a slate shingled roof. I also spoke to one of the top experts in the field...a very nice man named Joseph Jenkins. I began at the library yesterday and today, I know enough about the process, regional types of slate, appropriate tools of both the late 19th and early 20th century, to include it in a novel.

I have a tenth grade education...I refuse to buy into the idea that I am some how unique among all other human beings. If an idiot wants to work at McDonald's and whine about it, he's doomed. What he should do is go to the library, figure out what he REALLY wants to do and START LEARNING.

but, in your world, only a degree matters, right. In your world a man can't do this because...why?
why do we need to help ANYBODY? let them do for themselves....the effects will last longer.

see, I will know this stuff about slate roofs for the rest of my life. That's the beauty of doing it for your self. You treat these people like idiots by saying they need help.

in your system, stupidity breeds faster than cockroaches in a sub tropical climate. If they had to take care of themselves, maybe they would THINK about where their lives were going and DO something about it instead of stand around waiting for someone else to solve the problem...so they can get on with the breeding!

Dawn

In America, we gave the churches tax deductions with the promise they would not direct the government at any level. This worked very well until 2000 when Geo. W. Bush ran as a born again Christian and promised faith based grants.

Once the churches were paid by the government they should have lost their tax deduction and should pay for their income. I believe Pat Robertson lost his tax status but like other evangelicals, made millions on his own and on television.

As a Humanist, I have no problem with any groups collecting members and money but not if they start setting qualifications for the candidates.

I cut and pasted this from your previous post --

You can tax the churches out of existence, but you can't get rid of God or keep me from praying...must be annoying

After all, the government doesn't tax me or you out of existence, so they should tax the religions the same.

more quoted from you --

but, in your world, only a degree matters, right. In your world a man can't do this because...why?

I know you can go to the library and learn a lot of things, but no matter how many books you read and people you talk to, you will not get a job that requires you to have a degree in that subject. The personnel departments of this country enforce that. There is one way, you would have to show a track record of doing work, or discoveries, or something significant. Those are extremely rare. So your library-found knowledege is strictly for your own entertainment.

Some people in this country (and others) don't realize the importance of education while they are growing up. Others have disfunctional parents that never guided them properly and they end up learning no skill. Their future is hopeless, and many of them even resort to crime as an alternative.

As a result they need help to survive on very low incomes that won't carry them through. Maybe we can get some education to them finally even if its just a trade. What they definitely don't need is someone in a black robe who shows them 2 statues and asks them for donations. We can tax the churches and give the proceeds back to where it belongs.

regards,

Andrew,

You stagger me sometimes. I guess I didn't believe in you until you showed up and proved me wrong. I really am stunned at how...crippled...you are.
no, nothing is ever taxed out of existence, that defeats the purpose of taxation.I was using vague language assuming you had an imagination and a sense of humor. I apparently was wrong.

Like a successful virus, taxes keep the host alive long enough to grow and reproduce and find the next host. But taxation creates another illness....special interest groups, or did you forget them?

if you tax Churches, then churches become constituents and a very large special interest group would be formed. This group could then Demand certain things like national prayer, recognition of Christianity as the national religion...

but now, instead of just a few people carrying signs and spewing their values and ideas on television, you have an organized well funded group who will pull no punches in the effort to get its wishes met going toe to toe in Congress with other lobbies and powers...sounds like BushW don't it? but if you tax them, you can't vote for change, they become a part of the system, permanently Even Saint Obama would be forced to deal with them where he can simply ignore them now.

so, yeah, go ahead, tax the churches, give them the power that our forefathers denied them... that being REPRESENTATION. I know you are from the tax willy nilly to fix the world, sir, but, I remind you, the other half of taxation is representation and the power of America is representation.
I know you think we are a democracy but we are actually a representative republic.

are we learning yet? should I charge you for the lessons so that you feel smarter? or is the entertainment value enough?

Dawn

Dawn where are you? Your last reply has nothing to do with what you replied to. How can anyone debate anything with you if you keep moving the target.

I said that you can't substitute library education for a degree. Thats been my experience.

Then, I tried to show you why some people are cannot succeed in the world.

So, what are you going to do, change the subject and then argue as though that was what we were discussing. Thats like a bait and switch tactic. It doesn't work with me.

regards,

Some people cannot succeed in the world because they are losers who do nothing to further themselves. The concept that others should then provide for those losers out of their own hard earned wages via taxation is abhorrent to meas well as ludicrous to the extreme.

and you completely ignore the comment about taxes, representation and churches, I might add, which is the point of this thread that YOU started.

YOU were the one who began this thread. When I commented that you should go ahead and tax churches if you like, YOU were the one who brought up the poor uneducated helpless under employed idiots and I responded that anyone who lacks the education required to find a better job should apply either to the generous wealth redistribution programs ALREADY in place or get a damn library card like I did. I qualify for all kinds of free education my friend but prefer freedom and responsibility to being a govt slave or whore
The conversation has progressed from there. If you have no intelligent response to points I make and facts I give then don't try to tell me I'm stupid and think I am buying it.

your bait and switch tactics don't work with me either

Dawn

You should know that the Churches are the largest contributors in the world in both money and missionaries to the poorest of the poor. If we waited for the van full of non believers to pull into the most needy places of the world they would all be dead.

It is a temple of God and that it should'nt be taxed... we do realise that eve some churches are not well off.... but lets not question religion for now. It's not our place to say.!

All religions are true that worship jesus and i think its sad that they fight about who loves him better. and chuches of jesus wether mormon catholic or jehovah should not be taxed but im not all familiar with the other beliefs :(

I believe none of the churches should be taxed and they should keep the money in their own community or wherver they wish to donate it!!! they are the ones building the church and tithing in it as well as worship etc.

I don't think anyone should be taxed, not the way we do it now. A flat rate paid across the board and a gov't forced to operate with the money it has, that's my dream.
My point in arguing taxation for religion was to prove to a liberal ideologue that once again the way he thinks is short sighted, unprofessional, and long on unintended consequences. He rationalizes humanity. He wants utopia without faith. He has since stopped speaking to me.
I guess I win.
:)

Andrew99,

An interesting series of non-sensical multi-logues going on here...

Strictly speaking, from a Constitutional viewpoint, the Federal Government is prohibited from establishing religion or promoting one over another. And, it provides for the freedom of citizens to worship as they choose.

The tax-exempt status of churches prevents the selective over-taxing of some/all and driving them out of existence (a default establishment of religion, or extermination of it, both of which are un-Constitutional).

Besides, if you don't want the government to be subsidizing lazy folks (or becoming caretakers) then charities should exist to take up that slack. If you tax the charities, then monetary support for these programs to help the poor and incapable will diminish.

Since the Federal Government is charged with the protection of the citizenry and fostering a condition of opportunity, then it needs to encourage private solutions to these problems. The only other solution would be for your taxes to increase dramatically, and have the government shoulder that task. The resulting bureaucracy will stifle free enterprise and lead to a socialist transition.

I prefer the private sector to do it, not government. That way, only those desiring to give can (and to the extent of generosity that suits them). The government is already too far into my knickers for comfort. Any further and I'll have to scream "RAPE".

If there is approved law to be taxed churches then that is legal.

Given their interest in politics, I say hell yes!! Let them pay their admission price like the rest of us!!

The Catholic Church alone could wipe out the budget deficit if all you did was tax them on their real estate holdings, ha ha!