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Saini

Saini

 
Sainis have no links with Malis, Kushwahas, Reddys, Golas, etc - To whom it m...
 
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Saini discussion
 
TruthSeeker
01/31/09
The web page gives false information. Sainis have no link with Reddys, Kushwahas, Malis etc. Somebody has been spreading misleading information on web to confuse Saini identity. Sainis are not found south of Haryana. Even in Haryana not all people who claim to be Sainis are really so. All these groups who now claim to be Saini started calling themselves Sainis only in the last century. Please stop this misreprentation.

According British census reports, Sainis were not found outside undivided Punjab. Also, there is great diversity within Saini community. Punjabi Sainis have no link whatsoever with Mali community and take offence if somebody seeks make this uncorrborated link . Even in Haryana most Sainis are aware of this distinction and maintain it.

Saini is not a pan-India occupational group. It is an ethnic group which originated from Yadava rulers of Mathura and later relocated to Punjab due to invasions. There number is very small.
           
 
TruthSeeker
01/31/09
replied to: TruthSeeker
Replied To:  The web page gives false information. Sainis have no link with Redd...
Sainis differentiated from Malis (neo-Sainis)

Mali caste , in southern districts of Haryana and beyond in the states of UP , MP, and Rajasthan, also started using the surname "Saini" in 20th century[23][24]. However, this is not the same community as Yaduvanshi Sainis of Punjab This is testified by the fact that census of 1881 [139] does not acknowledge of the existence of Saini community outside Punjab and, despite the insinuations of colonial writers like Ibbetson, records Sainis and Malis as separate communities[42][140]. Sainis of Punjab historically have never inter-married with the Mali community, or with any community other than Sainis for that matter, and this taboo prevails even today generally. Apart from border districts of Haryana with neighboring UP , Delhi and Rajasthan, there have been little to no cultural or social exchange between Sainis and Malis, as both communities have distinct cultures and histories.

The Sainis of Hoshiarpur, Jalandhar, Ropar and Gurdaspur districts , especially the aristocratic families among them, had historically intermarried only within these districts until recently. Haryanvi speaking Sainis of Haryana generally intermarry within Rohtak, Karnal and Kurukshetra districts only, though it is possible that some poor and less aware Saini families in the border districts of Haryana may have socially bonded with the Mali community in the southern border district of Haryana, neighbouring Rajasthan, Delhi, and UP, a little stronger, and due to the adoption of "Saini" surname by Mali community south of Yamuna in 20th century both may have become further confused with each other.

Owing also to this particular confusion, most Saini families in Punjab prefer to intermarry only within certain districts of Punjab and those of Haryana contiguous to Punjab. Sikh Sainis are even more u
           
 
TruthSeeker
01/31/09
replied to: TruthSeeker
Replied To:  Sainis differentiated from Malis (neo-Sainis) Mali caste , in so...
Sikh Sainis are even more unlikely to intermarry outside these handful of districts.

Differences acknowledged in the colonial accounts

Differences as per Denzil Ibbetson's account

Even colonial census authorities, somewhat eager to club Sainis with Malis for the sake of getting easier handle on complex Saini history and ethnography, were forced to acknowledge this stark fact with the remark: "...that some of the higher tribes of the same class (Sainis) will not marry with them (Malis) [141] .

The mistake colonial ethnographers seem to have made was to confuse occupational communities with ethnic communities. The engagement of Sainis in horticulture, in addition to wheat and rice farming, gave the 19th century colonial administrators , yet untrained in subcontinent's historical texts and scientific approach to social anthropology, the impression that Sainis were probably related with the Mali community in some way. But it does not appear that the colonial rulers were themselves entirely convinced with this conjecture [37] as well because all of their accounts fall short of emphatically identifying Sainis as Malis. Instead the colonial accounts used diffuse and open-ended phraseology like "it would appear", "probably", etc wherever they attempted to hyphenate Sainis with Malis. But despite this ambivalence the colonial accounts do not fail to record that unlike Malis:

Sainis claimed Rajput origin from Mathura.
Sainis were a "martial race".
Sainis also did ordinary farming in addition to horticultural farming.
Sainis were land owners and sometimes owned the entire villages (thus confirming ther feudal status).
Sainis did not intermarry with Malis , and that, except perhaps for Bijnore (now in UP), they were regarded as entirely separate from the Malis in North-West Provinces (a
           
 
TruthSeeker
01/31/09
replied to: TruthSeeker
Replied To:  Sikh Sainis are even more unlikely to intermarry outside these hand...
Sainis did not intermarry with Malis , and that, except perhaps for Bijnore (now in UP), they were regarded as entirely separate from the Malis in North-West Provinces (a fact that made them record Sainis and Malis as distinct communities in 1881 census report).
Sainis were not found outside Punjab.
Differences as per Edward Balfour's account

In 1885 Edward Balfour, another colonial scholar, clearly identified Sainis as distinct from Malis. [47] What is more interesting is that Edward Balfour found Sainis to be largely involved with sugar-cane farming instead of vegetable farming while only Malis to be involved with gardening. Edward Balfour's account thus gives further confirmation, in addition to self-contradiction implied in Ibbetson's account, that Sainis were understood to be entirely different from Malis in the colonial times.
           
 
TruthSeeker
01/31/09
replied to: TruthSeeker
Replied To:  Sainis did not intermarry with Malis , and that, except perhaps for...
Differences acknowledged by post-colonial scholars

In Punjab there is no confusion whatsoever about the difference between Mali and Saini community and Sainis are nowhere confused with the Mali community. But in Haryana, a lot of Mali tribes have now adopted 'Saini' last name which has made the Saini identity somewhat confused in the state and southwards of it. Marking out the clear difference between Malis and Sainis of Haryana, an Anthroplogical Survey of India report published in 1994 states the following [142]:

"Many of them are large landowners. Besides during the past, the Malis had served the royal courts and were mainly working as gardners; but the Sainis did not serve others; rather they were independent agriculturists. Arain, Rain, Baghban, the Mali and the Maliar constitute a mixed body of men denoting occupation rather than caste...1) The Malis are not as rigid as the Sainis in accepting food from members of other castes; 2) Mali women were found working as agricultural labourers which is not the case with Saini women; 3) Educationally, occupationally, and economically, the Sainis are far better placed than are the Malis, and 4) Sainis are landownders and own large lands as compared to the Malis."
           
 
OVMA
04/10/09
replied to: TruthSeeker
Replied To:  Differences acknowledged by post-colonial scholars In Punjab the...
Hi, NEO RAJPUT SAINI, WHAT ARE YOU SATRTING ON INTERNET.
SAINI CASTE IS A AGRICULTURAL CASTE WHO GIE RECRUITS TO ARMY OF KINGS IN PAST OR TO PRESENT INDIA DEFENCE FORCES. IT DOES NOT MAKE THEM RAJPUT. SAINIS ARE FOUND IN WHOLE CENTRAL AND NORTH INDIA. 5% ARE SIKH AND MOSTLY IN pUNJAB. SAinis are of yadav origin and are divided in sub categories like kushwaha, mali etc. In India a caste can prosper in time to claim a ruling status like Kushwaha clan is considered rajput in rajasthan after they started rule in AMBER. But elsewhere in india are cultiating caste same like yadav or jats. Sainis of punjab though are ranking higher than mali of north india or sainis of rajasthan and UP but were not able to obtain rajput status as were not able to create a kingdom or most upper step in the ladder. EEN sainis in punjab accept food or share parties with sc,s, no practice of rituals. Saini and kmboj women go to fields and cut fodder etc and also harest, may not be your family or you live in city, Malis are aklso same oocupationally , politically and educationally better than jats and gujjars in Rjasthan, even CM IS A MALI/SAINI. Malis are landowners and hold full villages as well as mixed villages --gujjar and mali village or mali and jat liing together in a village as cultiator caste. Malis are mlas, ministers and chief ministers in that territory-- what logic you are telling. SAini is not a rajput or brahmin status surname --why malis will write saini if they are not same tribe, they can write jat or brahmin or rajput category to themself if they wish to prosper by hook and crook in social status--give me logic.
           
 
TruthSeeker
04/10/09
replied to: OVMA
Replied To:  Hi, NEO RAJPUT SAINI, WHAT ARE YOU SATRTING ON INTERNET. SAINI CAS...
That Malis started writing themselves Sainis only in the last century is indicated in all anthropological reports and gazettes. Whatever is posted above is based on proper references.

All Census reports upto 1931 state that there were no Sainis outside Punjab (included Haryana then). This can be checked.

in 1901 census Malis who had tried pass themselves off as Saini in the present census were excluded from Saini category and recorded as a separate group in Bijnore district.

Malis tried to pass themselves off as Sainis because the latter had much higher social status in Punjab, were appointed as Zaildars/revenue collectors and were in the marital class category. Calling themselves Saini had obvious advantages of not only of social promotion but also chance of entry into British Indian Army which did not allow Malis and many other castes to be recruited. British recruitment policy was strictly caste based. Army was the biggest employer in the British era. Muslim maliars tried pass themselves as Janjuas, Kumhars called themselves Jats, etc to get into British army who would not otherwise recruit them. Malis took full advantage of 1883 census' confusion and misrepresentations and tried to pass themselves off as Sainis. There is nothing inexplicable and unusual about this assumed identity business.

Rajput origin and character of Sainis of Punjab has been acknowledged even by anthropologist S S Gahlot (Ref:Castes and Tribes of Rajasthan, pp 108)
who himself is a Rajput. There is nothing new or "Neo" about this fact as it is centuries old. A Saini Rajput Mahasabha exists in Delhi since 1920. The sub clan names of Doaba Sainis (Mangar, Daulay, Bondi, Demrot, etc) match those of Mewati Muslim Rajputs who are of Yadava or Tomar descent. The world Saini, itself a short form of Shoorsaini, exactly matches Yadava kingdom of Mathura from where some Sainis migrated to Punjab after the attack of Ghazni. Those were left behind were converted to Islam by force. Their descendants are found in the present day Meos. Reference to the word Shoorsaini (full form Saini) is found in Mahabharta , Puranas and all later Indian historical texts as a ruling dynasty descending from Krishna, Balram, Satyaki and the name of the dynasty is inscribed on the Chonsat Khamba iron pillar near Mathura from where a later group of Sainis moved to Punjab after Turk attack. An earlier group of Saini/Yadava Rajputs had been in Punjab since the Mahbharata days.

So it is time for you to shut up and stop spreading libel and disinformation about Sainis. You Malis have already leeched on Saini identity for a long time and have sought to mislead others who do not have the time and patience to do full investigation.

With the ignorant stuff you have written about Sainis of Punjab above (and there are no real Sainis outside Punjab) , it is clear that you have never lived in Punjab and are writing the above out of sheer spite and jealousy. Nothing unusual again. Perhaps you do not realize that whatever is written in the posts above comes from state gazettes and reports published by Anthorpoligical Survey of India. So your lies are not going to stick. And if you had said these things in a public place in Punjab , you would have gotten back more than a verbal response.

Lastly, Ashok Gehlot is not a Saini. He is a Suryavanshi Rajput Mali. Rajput Malis were recorded as Rajputs in the Marwar state census of 1891. The Mahoor Malis, a lower class of Malis, in Rajashthan simply chose to assume "Saini" identity in previous century just like Ahirs became "Yadavas". Similarly, Gola Malis of UP, who were acknowledged to be different from Sainis even by Ibbetson, also assumed a fake Saini identity only in the previous century.

Sainis have nothing against Malis, Golas, Kushwahas, etc but if they would continue to distort and dilute Saini identity and history, Sainis have the right to protect their identity from further misrepresentation and will respond in the manner they deem fit to safeguard their separate status.

Given the lies and libelous stuff you have written above, absolutely without any references, I do not expect you to be honest because you seem to have a vested interest in pulling Sainis down in order for your caste group to continue to abuse and misrepresent the historically authentic Saini identity.

I am not likely to respond again unless you have proper academic references to back up your claims and otherwise libelous accusations. Bye.
           
 
TruthSeeker
04/10/09
replied to: TruthSeeker
Replied To:  That Malis started writing themselves Sainis only in the last centu...
PS- Yes Sainis were an agricultural group during the Muslim rule of Punjab . All Rajput groups were classed as agriculutral tribes in Punjab as all Rajputs , endogamous or exogamous, were involved in farming. Categories of agricultural and Kshatriya/Rajput were not mutually exclusive in Punjab. So your argument is ignorant and nonsensical written with nothing with malice.
           
 
OVMA
04/15/09
replied to: TruthSeeker
Replied To:  That Malis started writing themselves Sainis only in the last centu...
WHAT A WHACK--ASK ASHOK GEHLOT , HE IS RAJPUT OR MALI, HIS FAMILY IS MALI AN D YOU MALING HIM RAJPUT LIKE YOU NEO RAJPUT SAINI TO GIVE US LOGIC
           
 
OVMA
04/15/09
replied to: TruthSeeker
Replied To:  PS- Yes Sainis were an agricultural group during the Muslim rule of...
YOU LYING-- KAMBOJ ARE NOT ERAJPUT, LUBANA ARE NOT RAJPUT , RAI SIKHS ARE NOT RAJPUT, JAT ARE NOT RAJPUT, SAINIS-MALI ARE NOT RAJPUT IN PUNJAB THOUGH ARE FIGHTING TRIBES
           
 
OVMA
04/15/09
replied to: OVMA
Replied To:  YOU LYING-- KAMBOJ ARE NOT ERAJPUT, LUBANA ARE NOT RAJPUT , RAI SIK...
YOU HAVE NOTHING AGAINST KUSHWAHA , MALIS AS THEY RANK HIGHER THAN SAINIS OF PUNJAB IN THEIR RESPECTIVE REGIONS, THEY ARE POLITICALLY, SOCIALLY MORE ADVANCED IN THEIR STATES--LIKE MALIS HAVE CM IN RAJASTHAN, KUSHWHAS HAVE CABINET RANKS IN BIHAR, UP AND MP, WHAT SAINIS HAE IN PUNJAB, SHAME
           
 
TruthSeeker
04/16/09
replied to: OVMA
Replied To:  YOU HAVE NOTHING AGAINST KUSHWAHA , MALIS AS THEY RANK HIGHER THAN ...
Good to learn that these non-Saini groups feel so confident about themselves which is a good reason for them to leave Sainis alone and not make constant attempts to link themselves with them through sustained misreprsentation and disinformation which is deeply resented by Sainis since the British era.

There is nothing wrong in taking pride in being a Kushwaha, Mali or Gola, etc. If they are proud of their identity , good for them.

Self-assured and confident tribes/groups do not attempt to highjack the identity of another group and in case they were doing it inadvertently , they refrain from doing it further when made aware of their mistake.

Again, this would be a persuasive argument for those who are sincere and concentious. Your agenda seems to be contantly feed disinformation about Sainis to pull them down so that Mali identity can be blended with theirs easily in passive public mind. This has gone on from 1930s and all noted sociologists and anthropologists are aware of this ongoing 'Sanskritization'. But this agenda is well exposed for a long time and vigilant Sainis have been conscious of this systematic identity theft that has been going on since 19th century.

But this is not going to work in long run because sources of Surasena/Shoorsaini/Saini history and Kshatriya/Rajput ancestry are numerous and too well documented for this distortion and highjacking of identity to succeed ultimately. So you can rant on and on ...it won't change a ding because you no personal credibility and references to back up your libelous assertions.
           
 
TruthSeeker
04/16/09
replied to: OVMA
Replied To:  YOU LYING-- KAMBOJ ARE NOT ERAJPUT, LUBANA ARE NOT RAJPUT , RAI SIK...
Kambojs, Lubanas and Jats are respectable and hard working communities who are proud of whatever they are. They don't seek to steal the identity of another group. These communities , like all other Punjabi communities, have good relation with Sainis but share no other link with them otherwise. They are each unique and distinct endogamous groups who are deeply and proudly aware of their unique identities.

Who cares what you think about what status or ancestral background a particular community has when there are historial texts available to prove or disprove claims. So you take the high road for a change and move on. Screaming and shouting do not change the hisorical truths. You have already written much nonsense above which can be rebutted with references from any sociological and historical academic texts. But again those who are sincerely inquisitive will find a way to check them and see through the libelous and propagandist ruse that you have sought to unleash . It is futile to argue with you further because you are here with the loaded agenda to confuse the identity of another group to push your own group into it by hook or by crook. G' bye.
           
 
444444444444444
12/04/09
replied to: TruthSeeker
Replied To:  Sainis differentiated from Malis (neo-Sainis) Mali caste , in so...
u r complitely wrong............. all sainis,malis,and other sername which r come in saini they all r same .THIS IS TIME FOR ALL SAINI COM.....STAND AND SHOW THERE POWER TO ALL WORLD.
           
 
444444444444444
12/04/09
replied to: TruthSeeker
Replied To:  Kambojs, Lubanas and Jats are respectable and hard working communit...
u r worng......... and u r not history writter.u said malis r not sainis then why u r not spread in hole india. The population of whole com...(malis, sainis and other sername)abiut 10,000,00crore.so...wake up bro.........show the power all india.
           
 
SARUNTO
03/23/13
replied to: 444444444444444
Replied To:  u r worng......... and u r not history writter.u said malis r not s...
Yes time 1 hone ka h..ham bhi suryavanshi kshatriya h...
ase 1 dusre ke burai karne ka nahi...ok...25% H SAINI india me phair bhi saini aage nahi aaye...karan h ..sangathan na hona..