I am trying to locate the names of the other members of the family of Beatrice Portinari, born to Folco Portinari, 1265 or 1266. She is the Beatrice from Dante's writings.

I found a vague reference to her mother, perhaps named Cilia. Can you confirm this is correct?

I found another reference that she was the eldest of 11 children. Any idea of the names and birth dates of the other 10?

I found another refernece that said three brothers might be named Pigello, Gherardo and Jacabo. And another that briefly mentions Antonio.

The will of Folco Portinari apparently still exists ijn Florence and is associated with a hospital there, Saint Maria Nuova. The will supposedly ames the children, but I can't find a translation of full text online ... yet. Just references to Beatrice in that.

Citation references would be helpful.

Thanks,
Hanna

I have a copy of that will in a book about the church of Santa Margherita (Chiesa di Santa Margherita detta Chiesa di Dante, by Roberto Tassi, not an easy book to find). There is more information in Christopher Kleinhenz's Medieval Italy: An Encyclopedia, Vol. 2, which you should be able to view online (google Portinari Kleinhenz, and it should be there). There is also the Dizionario Biografico degli Italiani. My notes, from those and other sources, indicate that Bice's mom was indeed Cilia (or Celia) di Gherardo Caponsacchi. There were at least two married daughters at the time Folco's will was written (1287). Ravignana was already married (to Bando Falconieri), and Bice was already married to Simone dei Bardi. I can't tell which was older. Of the sons, the order listed (presumably the birth order) is as follows: Manetto, Ricovero (these two were legal adults at the time), Pigello, Gherardo, and Iacopo (minors at the time, given into the guardianship of two relatives, Grifo Assalti and Salto Portinari). The unmarried girls, in the order listed, were Vannia, Fia (or Pia), Margherita, and Castoria. I hope this helps. BTW, the date of the will (January 1287), assuming it's given accurately in the old Florentine dating system, would be January 1288 by modern dating. As you probably know, Folco died in 1289, just a few months before Bice herself. Good luck; if you think I can provide anything else of use, please let me know.
Tinney

This is a great list, thank you for sharing it. I will check with my librarian this week to see if she can locate them. Are they only in Italian? Are you a Dante scholar?

Are you familiar with this work by del Lungo? Beatrice nella vita e nella poesia del secolo XIII. I found it on www.archive.org, you can search on Beatrice nella to get it faster. I dont know Italian, so I struggle with it using Google Language Tools.

Somewhere along the way, I found a notation that Bice was the oldest, but now I can't retrace my steps. I did not keep a good note on that particular detail.

Hi - I'm glad the list looks useful. The book about the church is actually in four languages (English being one of them). The Kleinhenz encyclopedia is in English, and the Dizionario is in Italian. I've seen the del Lungo book online, and sort of skimmed it (I do read Italian, but with dictionary in hand). I'm not a Dante scholar, exactly, but I write historical fiction, and I'm working on a book about Gemma Donati, Dante's wife. Unfortunately, I'm not great at keeping track of sources, so I can't always retrace my steps, either. I've seen mention of Bice as the oldest, too, but Ravignana did already have a son (in fact, Folco's bequest was to the son [Niccolo] and not to Ravignana, in the same amount [50 lire, I think it was] as he gave Bice). Some scholars think Ravignana was dead by then, and that's why the bequest went to the son, but I didn't see anything in the wording to suggest that. What it does suggest is that Bice did not have a living child at that time, or he presumably would have done the same for her child. I'm guessing she died in childbirth. The del Lungo seems to have most of the text of the will. Next time I get to the library and look at the Dizionario, I'll check to see if there's an entry for Ravignana's husband - maybe that would help us figure out which of the two was older. Boys and girls were listed separately, so I'm not sure how to merge the two into a total birth order. Are you a Dante scholar?

Historical fiction on Dante's wife. Sounds interesting, kind of like the book 'Ahab's Wife.' Will it be your first book or do you have others?

No, I am not a Dante scholar. I am a writer-wannabe and I am writing a fictional book based on Beatrice. I never intended it to be historical fiction, or even set in the 13th century, but it is turning out that way. So, now I have two books based on Beatrice, one is set in their time, the other in ours. If I ever finish it, it will be my first fiction book. It is also, for me, an exercise in writing more than a 30 page start. I have a non-fiction manuscript I am shopping around again.

I hope the fact that we are working differently, but in the same vein, will not impede our sharing of historical information.

I, too, had seen references to Bice being the oldest and childless when she died.

I probably should also have characterized myself as a writer wannabe. I do have one finished novel, which I am currently shopping around to agents, but no representation yet. It's a frustrating process. I'm a little confused - have you written a non-fiction book about Bice, then? In the present time? How does that work? No, I see no problem at all in sharing information. Our projects are clearly related, but I don't see them as competitive. I just think it's fascinating that we should be doing these projects at the same time. Perhaps these are ideas whose time has come - I wonder how many others are involved in similar efforts.

I did go back to the Dizionario and look up Bando Falconlieri (Ravignana's husband), but I didn't find anything to help us assess her age relative to Bice's. I did learn that Bando was a pretty important guy, a prior in 1283-84, in 1286, and again in 1290, with other government offices in the years 1282-1301, and he served as podesta of Bergamo in 1294 and went on a diplomatic mission for the city in 1296. He was affiliated with the White party and came from a family of merchants and bankers. His father (Cambio) had also been very active in government. That's probably not very useful, but that's what I found. Our library only has the Dizionario through "Ma", so I haven't seen the entry for the Portinari yet. (When I started this project they were only up to Giovanni, so I guess things are improving.)

No, my non-fiction is about writing research papers.

The novel around Bice i am working on started out as
an idea to work on to get my mind off some other stories that were too frustrating. It will be my first. The thing I found on Google that I sent before was I think a 15th century attempt to identify Beatrice and family. I saw another novel, but lost track of the name. Need to look again.

I have not made it to the library yet, it is not convenient to me so it has been a problem. I just keep marking things in my writing so I can fix it later.

Do you have any idea about formal and casual forms of address in the 13th century? Like man to woman, woman to woman, woman to friend, servant to employer, employer to servant, Aunt, Uncle, adutl to child, child to adult?

I hope your writing is going well.

I wish I did know more about informal address... I do know that "Monna" is used to designate a married woman, and that "Monna Tessa," Bice's nurse, who is known for persuading Folco to found the hospital, always seems to be referred to in that way. I also note that in song texts from the 14th century, such as caccias, which depict casual conversation, people (at least people of the same age and sex) seem to call each other by their first names (I'm thinking of a Landini caccia - more of a pescia, really - where a bunch of young women are fishing, or playing at fishing).

I wanted to bring to your attention a couple of things: some fairly recent research by Domenico Savini seems to suggest that Bice was married by 1280 (when she would have been only 14), and also that she was likely interred with her husband's family in Santa Croce, rather than in Santa Margherita. Here's a link:

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrice_Portinari

I know it's Wikipedia, but I haven't yet found Savini's work, except for a newspaper article.

Sorry I did not write back sooner. I got distracted.

The wikipedia entry in Italian seems to have more info than the one in English. Interesting.

I take it you are referencing Domenico Savini the Italian genealogist.

How is your writing going?

I am at what I call my 30-page-false-start. I have done enought that I need to rethink my characters, timeline and outline. It's a frustrating but productive place to be.

I start a new job next week and I am bummed how much time it will eat up. Except for the financial stress, I have enjoyed not working. I am determined to find writing time, even with working, if it means over a lunch break or other time.