Christianity

Why is it that Luke 17:24-36 is never mentioned when the Rapture is discussed? I find that these verses clearly show when the Rapture will occur so I've made the following article to show how I see things. Can anyone show how this passage can be viewed differently?

The following chart and text examine the verses in Luke 17:24-36 which are entirely about the day Jesus returns like lightning. I start with Matt. 24 to show the timing of the verses in Luke 17:24-36.
Point 3 on the chart is Matt. 24:21, the Great Tribulation, and then after the tribulation …
Point 5 (Matt. 24:27, 30) says that Jesus will appear like lightning - Luke 17:24 is the parallel verse.
Now let's follow the verses in Luke 17 which describe Jesus' return AFTER the Great Tribulation.
Points 6 and 7 (Luke 17:26-29) describe the sudden destruction of sinners in the days of Noah and Lot then …
Point 8 (Luke 17:30) says that it (the destruction) will be just the same when Jesus returns. Also …
Point 9 (Luke 17:31-33) says that “ON THAT DAY” no one should look to earthly things but to remember Lot's
wife because …
Points 10 and 11 (Luke 17:34-35) say that “one will be taken and the other left” and this is the Rapture.
So, AFTER the Great Tribulation, Jesus will return like lightning to rapture believers and to destroy sinners.

See Chart at
http://www.christianissues.biz/pdf-bin/endtimes/luke17.jpg

This chart shows the flow of events as:
1) The Antichrist ………………………………… at Point 1.
2) The Great Tribulation ………………………… at Point 3.
3) Jesus appears like lightening …………………. at Point 5.
4) The Rapture and the Day Of The Lord ……….. at Points 8 to 11.

Rescuing the righteous and then destroying the sinners was the pattern in the days of Noah and Lot and Jesus said, in Luke 17:30, that it would be the same when He returns.

The readings you cite are insightful, and I think you may be on a reasonable track. The question that you pose about these verses being 'soft-peddled' or subdued may depend greatly upon the end-times view the christian sect takes.

Each has to do with *when* the 'rapture' occurs, and will define the degree of believer persecution that can take place before the event and following inevitable judgment.

We know that the suffering is geared toward strengthening the endurance of the believer to weather adversity (which is an integral part of the sinful world consequences). The stronger the believer becomes at resisting the world, then the greater the believer's reliance upon God and the better the believer resists the influences of the world's master, Satan (thus, in favor of the redeemed after-life).

Quite a few 'rapture' oriented preachers want to believe that even before the seven years of tribulation starts the event will occur. IMHO, this places them in view of increasing disasters but not in danger of having to affirm their beliefs in earnest... Another group thinks that the 'rapture' will occur half-way through the period (when life in societies around the world are beginning to collapse). And, that they will be spared the bulk of the suffering (because the righteous are not punished with sinners)... Still another group feels that the 'rapture' will follow Sodom and Gomorrah, when Lot made it out "in the nick of time". Your citations would support this latter view.

The thing to remember is that God has set something in motion, and He claims to be "unchanging". So, I read that to mean that what He does will always be consistent. What He did for Lot, then He'll do that for Christians.

What this viewpoint of end-time does not resolve is the question about how the Hebrew nation comes to recognition of Jesus as the Messiah, who had already come once and been rejected by them.

Hello there Yoda55,

Yes, I believe that the Rapture will occur in the same way people were rescued in the days of Noah and Lot.

I haven't looked real closely at how the Jew will recognise Jesus as their Messiah. However, it seems to me that Jesus will rescue Israel from the nations that surround them and "then they will know He is Lord". This term is used often in Ezek 39-39, Joel, Zechariah and probably elsewhere. I am sure there is much more to it but I haven't studied it.

God bless,
Mick

This depicts the condition of the great tribulation.

Revelation 13:17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

This depicts a time devoid of that condition:

Matthew 24: 37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

If the great tribulation starts when they give the command out to start building the Temple in Jerusalem, then there would be no need to watch, right? Just keep track on the calender: but the saints will be persecuted and risk dying for not taking the mark in order to survive.

So the need to watch would hardly be applicable to anyone during the great tribulation when the carefreeness of marrying and giving in marriage along with the liberty to eat and drink would suggest being able to buy and sell without the mark: thus a time before the great tribulation.

God ahd addressed seven churches in Revelation for the point of being ready for the Bridegroom when He comes.

The consequences of the great tribulation in verses 22-23 to one church as to all churches are mentioned below:

Revelation 2:18And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28And I will give him the morning star. 29He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The promise of escape for being ready is mentioned in verse 10 below as well:

Revelation 3:7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Since the falling away from the faith has occurred: the call to be ready by turning to the author and finsiher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight and sin that so easily besets us is one prayer worth citing to in earnest.

Luke 21:33Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

One cannot be commanded to watch so as to not be ensnared by the cares of this life if they cannot buy and sell without the mark of the beast, right? Certainly would not be able to buy drinks to get drunk if this was to be during the great tribulation.

By His grace and by His help, seeing how the falling away from the faith has occurred: I see the rapture as God judging His House first to restore the wayward to the path of righteousness for His name's sake: the foolish virgins will have oil for their lamps and be shining as witnesses of the Son finally just as the prodigal son that gave up their first inheritance for wild living will be returning, but missing out on their first inheritance: the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

So that is why alot of "saints" will be dying as their works will follow them into the dust: but Jesus will finish His work in them for they have been bought with a price and sealed as His and thus becoming vessels unto dishonour in His House as these "vessels of dishonour" will testify to the power of God in salvation which is in Christ Jesus to all those that believe: even in His name.

But what believer wants to be left behind? Not me.

Thus by His grace and by His help, I pray and trust Jesus Christ in being my Good Shepherd to have me ready and worthy to escape all that is coming upon the earth: the hour that shall try all upon the earth which is the great tribulation because of the imposition of taking the mark of the beast in order to survive.

You wrote "Can anyone show how this passage can be viewed differently?"

If 'rapture' means suddenly snatching up individuals all across Earth before the world to come, then 'rapture' is mentioned in prophecy well over a dozen times by the prophets. But, why do some people think that this is a good thing for those who are 'raptured'? You want to be the one left behind.

Consider this: The meek/obedient/humble/righteous will inherit the Earth under the Christ/Messiah in the world to come. So, if the humble and obedient remain here on Earth which is their inheritance, to live in peace and abundance — then those who are raptured — suddenly taken away — are the evil, arrogant ones that Yahweh despises, who despise his Laws. On the last day of wrath, these are the ones who are thrown to the furnace, or lake of burning brimstone (e.g. Daniel 7:11, etc).

3 places in Daniel, and dozens elsewhere, state that the prophecies are sealed up until the end times; it appears that the end times are now. The major event of deliverance of God's people is the exodus, the passover, which (usually) is the first full moon of spring. The prophecies are written for us, because the prophecies are now unsealed for us today. But what year? They did not have our 'indo-arabic positional notation' that lets us write 'eleven' as two vertical strokes; that was 'two' until only a few centuries ago; and they didn't have the zero as a number. But what the Author of Prophecy did was elegant: we use a slash in both the 'slashed zero' (as in Monaco font) and the slash in '1/2'; a slash is common to both. In the context of the beasts of Daniel and similar contexts, the beasts will be driven out at the end — and a phrase taking many forms that occurs about two dozen times with this context, is 'time, times and half a time' (or 3 years 6 months; or 1260 days, which is 3 and a half years of 30 day months; or 42 months; or 3 1/2 years; etc.). Take the 3 1/2 and put a zero where the slash is; since Hebrew and Aramaic are read right to left (unlike English), we have a year — 2013, given about two dozen times for the end of the reign of evil on Earth.

But that is not all. We also have another couple of dozen mentions in the same context of the moon becoming red or dark; and the sun becoming dark. Passover is during a full moon; a full eclipse of the moon will often appear as deep red. And the sun? The soonest an eclipse of the sun can occur, is a fortnight. The last day is mentioned in connection with unusual darkness of sun and moon — full eclipses. You can check astronomical data for full eclipses of sun and moon; the year of tribulation would thus begin on passover 2013, and then finish with full eclipses of both sun and moon on passover of 2014. And, mirabile dictu, there IS a full lunar eclipse on passover 2014 with a full solar eclipse a fortnight later! And the next year, 2015, there is yet another full solar eclipse a fortnight before passover, with still another full lunar eclipse on passover again!! The odds of this happening by chance, is once in dozens of centuries. That makes over 55 prophecies that specify the year of tribulation from 2013 to 2014 and 2015. The odds against this being chance, are absurdly astronomical. The pet theory of critical scholars (who deny the reality of divine prophecy) called 'vaticinium eventu' is equally absurd here.

If you recall, the Serpent did a clever job of deceiving Adam and Eve in Genesis 3. The 'rapture theory' indeed sounds like a similar slick lie by the same liar. Does nobody read the bible? Those snatched up on the last day are deeply despised and hated by Yahweh of hosts: see Isaiah 13:8-18 (sun and moon darkness mentioned); Isaiah 22:2-19 where the 'raptured' are treated as prisoners, and a reference to being hurled to a distant land like a ball (or planet of internment; 'planet hell').

The exile of the evil people on the last day is mentioned repeatedly. The extended metaphor uses words such as whirlwind, pillar, column (of fire or smoke), or a heavenly sword. These criminals lie paralyzed, as if slain, before being swept up and blown away like so much trash in the wind. You can easily find almost a hundred mentions of this pillar or column. In Ezekiel 9, those who will remain on Earth when Yahweh returns with his messengers, are marked on (or in, the same preposition) the forehead; this is also mentioned in Revelation. These are the chosen ones who will be hiding quietly (like Lot and his daughters when Sodom was destroyed), but will live in the restored paradise here on Earth, with the Messiah/Christ. This pillar of cloud or fire is mentioned over 80 times. It is 'Jacob's ladder', and it was used to sweep up Lot's wife, when she looked back on her times in Sodom. Many times those struck by this divine weapon or device, are paralyzed (like Daniel and others); or they are lifted up and the messengers commune with them, as with Jacob and Abram. (This is essentially identical to thousands of recent descriptions of 'alien abductions'; the 'aliens' are 'messengers' who put a mark in those they judge fit for the paradise on Earth with Messiah. Yahweh calls everyone he creates, 'men', no matter where they are born, male or female. No one seems to have considered that the so-called modern 'aliens' are behaving identically to 'messengers of Yahweh' as described in scripture. Of course I'm not expecting you to believe this conclusion; but just search out the scriptures, and decide for yourself.)

The Messiah is born of a virgin, and will be too young to tell right from wrong on that day, according to Isaiah 7:15; therefore the 'one like a son of man' who comes will not be the Messiah, but will likely be Michael, who helps Gabriel and the host to haul away the garbage on that day — which is, according to another half dozen prophecies, about 90% of humanity now living; cities will be deserted. Is the 'son of man' who leads the heavenly host named Jesus anywhere?? A lot of people (such as you and I) are 'sons of men'. The messengers of YHWH (angels) are often called 'men'. The Christ/Messiah will not be God, nor half divine, but one of us and 100% human; see Deuteronomy 17:15.

And, until the Messiah grows up, we will need a mature Messiah; the fact that we have mention of him 'coming like lightning' is a very elegant prophecy. 'Lightning' means 'Barack' in biblical Hebrew. The USA has a Commander-in-Chief named Barack; but there is another Commander-in-Chief named Barack mentioned in Judges 4. One of the female saviors of Israel was a mother and prophet and judge of Israel, who led the attack on the Philistines and ruled all Israel for 40 years; her name is Deborah, and the Israeli Commander-in-Chief was named Barack, but he would not lead the attack, so Deborah went to battle and won; another woman killed the Philistine general. Is Jesus saying that he is coming as 'lightning' (Barack) from the east, so therefore he is giving us a riddle that says a woman will be leading the chosen people once again? For those who despise the idea of a female Christ/Messiah, they might be choosing banishment (i.e. 'rapture'), never to see paradise with Messiah. But, you must read and decide. For myself, I'm only reporting what countless dozens of prophecies have in common; I ignore any conclusion that has only one prophecy to back it; but most of these findings have dozens of prophecies behind them. The best way to understand this material, is to entirely ignore and forget what all authorities and traditions have been telling us; they are full of falsehoods. We are urged (over 75 times) to inquire of Yahweh only, and he promises to answer our inquiry if we persist and wait on it. But, he refuses to share his honor with any human authority, no matter how idolized. So, read. Or, die. If you do not understand, demand understanding. And, if that is too slow in coming, then worry and fear — that is called 'fear of the LORD', and that will save you, if your time comes unexpectedly (see Matthew 24:46).

BTW: the antichrist and 666: Just as Romans used Roman numerals which were numbers assigned to alphabet letters — Hebrew used gematria, which assigned 1 to 10 to the first ten letters of the Hebrew alphabet; then the next letters went from 20 to 100; then 200, 300 and 400. This was a well-known practice, so every word had a number. The most basic way of expressing 666 sounds like 'Terso', the ancient name for Tarsus. 666 shows up a number of times, e.g. Isaiah 66, verse 6 (6 from the end of the chapter) has 'and Pul, Tarshish'; 'Pul' (or PWL) is the simplest way of transliterating 'Paul'. That phrase has the gematria value of 1332; divide by 2. This prophetic method is used several times more. Rashi, in his commentary on Daniel 10, mentions that the 'sea' is the 'sea of Tarshish'; to anyone from Jerusalem who speaks Hebrew or Aramaic, asking what '666' refers to, is like asking us, 'Who is buried in Grant's tomb?' Some foolish experts claim that 'Tarshish' was a lost village in Spain called Tartessus; that would mean the Atlantic Ocean was the sea of Tarshish. Nope. Many prophecies identify Tarsus (and the evil from the north) with Tarshish. Therefore, I humbly suggest avoiding the new testament epistles and Acts and all comments by apostles in the gospels; they are not inspired, at least not by Yahweh. Only words of the prophets are inspired. I found dozens of places where the Pauline epistles directly contradict Jesus; and not a single place where they agree; but, compare for yourself; and be ready for a shock.

Interesting collection of thoughts...

Those who hold onto the earth (those "of the world", not those "in the world"), as Jesus spoke, will be tied to it and judged accordingly. Those who follow what He taught to the disciples (and apostles executed in evangelism) are not tied to this world - they seek after the spiritual, which is the greater reward.

Jesus (the judge, due to His self-sacrifice and subordination to the Father's will) will remove believers from the area of destruction just as God urged Lot (& family) to leave before Sodom and Gomorrah destructions.

If you're pointing to the Passover (in Egyptian bondage) as the example, you might consider that God was not destroying Egypt. He was causing them sufficient irritation so that they would expunge the Hebrews from Egypt. If God were to destroy Egypt, then the Hebrews would have been extricated - as was Lot.

In the Revelation/Daniel/Isaiah end-times descriptions, the WORLD is saturated with the ungodly. It'd have to be a very intricate rescue of the believers, if they were to remain on earth (as in the Passover). Those believing in Jesus' promises will be removed physically from the earth before the crescendo of disasters (natural, man-made, and meta-physical), and the height of Satan's control (thru the anti-Christ). This is because when Satan is unrestrained in the final part of the Tribulation, no one will survive who opposes him.

God is allowing mankind to view what unrestrained life on earth would be like without God. The depravity and destructiveness will shock anyone. Self-absorbtion and subjective notions of right and wrong will only end one way - in destruction.

You seem to think that the New Testament is somehow corrupt... Is that because you aren't Christian?

Why is it that Luke 17:24-36 is never mentioned when the Rapture is discussed?

There are quite a few places where, at the Lord's Day, people are taken away. But, they are taken away in wrath, so that the meek (obedient to the Father) can inherit the Earth.

Jesus talks about people being taken away in Luke 17:34-35; but in Luke 17:37, the disciples asked Jesus, "Where are they taken to?"

Jesus replies, "Where the body is, in that place the vultures will be gathered together."

The definition of 'vulture' is: "a large bird of prey with the head and neck more or less bare of feathers, feeding chiefly on carrion and reputed to gather with others in anticipation of the death of a sick or injured animal or person."

Really, that does NOT sound like heaven. But that is where they are taken to. There are a lot of places where the obedient, faithful, or humble (or meek) will inherit the Earth with the Christ Messiah; but doesn't that mean then, that the evil ones are the ones who are 'raptured'?

Vultures are also mentioned in Matthew:

Matthew 24:28 For wherever the carcass is, there will the vultures be gathered together.
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so will also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so will also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:40 Then will two be in the field; the one will be taken, and the other left.

Both Noah and Lot went inside and closed the doors behind them, while the evil ones were being swept away. 'Rapture' means, 'taken by force'; it is the root word for 'rape' and 'raptor' (birds of prey). How is being swept up in a flood or carried away by a bird of prey, heavenly and desirable?

In Psalm 37 it says three times that the humble and righteous will inherit the Earth, but the evildoers will be taken away, never to be seen again. Psalm 37 says that the evildoers will not be there; they are 'raptured' away, leaving the righteous behind on Earth:

Psalm 37:3 Trust in YHWH, and do good; so will you dwell in the land, and you will be fed in truthfulness.
Psalm 37:9 For evildoers will be cut off: but those that wait upon the YHWH will inherit the Earth.
Psalm 37:10 After a little while, the wicked will not be: and you will diligently look for him, and he will not be there.
Psalm 37:11 But the humble will inherit the Earth; and will delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

I suspect that the Serpent did not retire after deceiving Adam and Eve, and he is recruiting victims to follow him, when he is finally banished (raptured) from Earth.

Hello Jimhsan,

This is how I see things. When believers are raptured (gathered to the Lord), the Bible says that they will be gathered in the clouds with Jesus, not taken to heaven.

The clouds are in the in the air, like vultures. In Rev. 19:17-18 it talks about the birds being in the air for Armageddon. So, I believe that believers will be gathered to Jesus, in the air, while He pours out His wrath on the nations. After this time, the meek will inherit the earth.

The word 'taken' in the term 'one taken and the other left' means to receive near, or take to oneself and it is the same word used in John 14:3 where Jesus said that He will return to take us to be with Him.

Another point is that, in Luke 17:30, Jesus said that it would be like the days of Noah and Lot when He returns. In those days, the unsaved were not taken anywhere but were destroyed where they were. However, the saved were removed to a place of safety which God's wrath was poured out on the earth. So, if we are to believe what Jesus said, then once again the unsaved will be destroyed where they are while the saved will be in a place of safety.

God bless,
Mick

I think this is an important topic. Especially when there are several verses that are similar to Hosea 4:6 "my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge … " I am definitely in favor of getting essential knowledge, and not making foolish choices.

Where is the name "Jesus" specifically mentioned with rapture, or end times? 'Lord' can refer to Jesus, or to the heavenly Father. But anyone, good or evil, can have the title 'lord' (or 'Lord', since uppercase/lowercase letters are a recent innovation and were not used in biblical Aramaic, Greek or Hebrew scriptures).

There is a ruler, a Prince of the air that is mentioned. But it is not Jesus the Prince of Peace. It seems to be the Evil One:

Ephesians 2:2 in which in time past you walked according to the course of
this world, according to the Prince of the Power of the Air, the
spirit that now works in the children of disobedience:

The 'course of this world' looks like a parallel construction to 'Prince of the Power of the Air' and 'the spirit … of disobedience' in Ephesians 2:2. This seems to be the Prince of: this world; the power of the air; children of disobedience. The Evil One, in other words.

Jesus, several times, mentions the 'Prince of this world', and he seems to be implying that this prince is, or is a ruler with the Evil One:

John 14:28 You have heard how I said to you, I go away, and come again
to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice, because I said: I
go to the Father: for my Father is greater than I. […]
John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you, for the Prince of
this world comes, and has nothing on me.

What troubles me is this: Jesus is going to his Father. The Prince of the powers of the air, is the Evil One. If Jesus said, 'I go to the power of the air, to wait for you', that would be different. Then Jesus could be replacing the Evil One in the air; or there could be two Princes of the power of the air, both Jesus and the Evil One at the day of wrath (this seems highly unlikely). Somehow, having both Jesus and the Evil One, side by side, does not make sense. The Son of Man is at the right hand of the Father, not at the side of the Evil One, right? And the Father is in the heavens, and the Evil One is in the power of the air, or the prince of this world — who is soon to be sent to the furnace, or lake of fire with his followers. Daniel describes this event:

-------------------------------------------
Daniel 7:8-14 I considered the horns, and, behold! a certain horn came
up between them, and three of the first horns were pulled up
by the roots before it: and, behold! this horn had eyes like the
eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking of great things.
Daniel 7:9 I watched until the thrones were overthrown, and the
Ancient-of-Days sat, whose garment was white as snow, and the
hair of his head was like pure wool: his throne was like the fiery
flame, and his wheels[GLGL] were as a flashing flame.
Daniel 7:10 A fiery stream arose and came forth from before him: a
thousand thousands ministered to him, and 10,000 times 10,000
stood before him: the-Judgment was set, and scrolls were opened.
Daniel 7:11 I watched then because of the sound of the great things that
the horn spoke; I watched as the beast was slain, and his body
destroyed and sent to the glowing fire.
Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night Visions, and watched as one like a son of
mankind came with the Clouds-of-the-heavens; and he came to the
Ancient-of-Days, and they brought him near to him.
Daniel 7:14 And he was given authority to rule, and glory, and a kingdom,
so that all people, nations, and languages would serve him: his
dominion is an everlasting authority which will not pass away, and
his kingdom will not be destroyed.
------
Daniel 12:1 And, in-that-time when Michael will arise -- the great prince
who protects the children of your people -- and there will be a
time-of-distress such as never was before, from the beginning
to that-time; and in-that-time your people will escape, every one
found written in the Scroll.
-------------------------------------------

I know that most Christians assume that the Son of Man coming in glory in the clouds to judge' is Jesus. But then, Jesus describes this, and he could have said, 'I will come in glory in the clouds … ' but Jesus does not say that it is him; Jesus says 'Son of Man'. We know Jesus quotes Daniel ('the abominator of desolation in the holy place, as Daniel said; let the reader understand'). And, Daniel mentions someone who was as a 'son of man' several times. The idiom 'son of man' simply means, someone who looks like a man'. Others, like Ezekiel, were called 'son of man'.

But, behold! Daniel 12:1 calls this great one who appears for judgement with the scroll of remembrance (mentioned about eight times elsewhere) as Michael!

And, Daniel 7:13 describes someone who approaches the Ancient-of-Days as a son of man; that is, with the appearance similar to a human.

We have the ancient-of-days; we have a son of mankind coming in the clouds in 7:13; elsewhere, we have the Christ-Messiah; and we have the heavenly host, or army, that is led by Yahweh-Elohim-of-hosts.

Is the ancient-of-days, Yahweh?
Daniel 12:1 seems to say that the son of man coming in clouds with glory, is Michael.
Does Michael, like a commander-in-chief, lead the army of heaven to remove the Evil One and his followers, so that the Messiah may reign in peace? Usually, a general or commander will be leading the army in battle, for the king or president, who is an administrator, not a general.
Is there any reason why Michael is the general, and the Christ-Messiah is the ruler who administers the people as king? We surely can have both. (Somewhere in John's gospel, Jesus says, I come to save, not to judge.) In several places, such as in Deuteronomy 17, the Law says that the King we have, must be one of us, a brother of ours, and not a foreigner. Our 'brothers' are humans, they are not divine or members of a Holy Trinity.

That idea of Jesus being God in the Trinity, is from the Apostles, or Nicaean Creed of the first Ecumenical Council of Nicaea of AD 325, that was convoked by the Roman emperor Constantine. Constantine has speeches we can read, where he condemns the Jews; he did away with the Saturday sabbath for both Jews and Christians; he made Easter the observance, instead of the Passover -- Jesus observed the Passover. Jesus said the Law was eternal (Luke 16:17, etc.) but Constantine declared that he could change the eternal Law, as head of Nicaean Christianity. Daniel describes the beast as changing the times and observances:

Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold! a certain horn came
up between them, and three of the first horns were pulled up
by the roots before it: and, behold! this horn had eyes like the
eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking of great things.
Daniel 7:25 And he will make great declarations against the-Supreme,
and will wear out the Holy-Ones of the-Supreme, and he intends
to change the Stated-Times-and-Law …

Is this Constantine? It may be. That certain horn pulled up three other horns; and Constantine reunited the Roman empire by overcoming the other three rulers of the Tetrarchy that divided the empire into four parts; a match. The Tetrarchy was started by Diocletian, who was a Greek and became emperor; another match (Daniel calls him the hairy goat, and says he was Greek; he was born Diocles to a Greek family); Daniel also says this Greek king fought the Medes and Persians, and none of his children were given any part of the empire when he divided it; two more matches. (A Greek king can rule the Roman empire, just as a Texan President can rule in the US White House.)

All the commentaries on Daniel say that this Greek king was Alexander the Great, from 5 or 6 centuries earlier; but that is a red herring that fits few of the Daniel prophecies. Constantine fits them all. In other words, the 40 or so prophecies that the 'wisdom of the wise will be turned into foolishness' at the end times, are also fulfilled! They are All Wrong about Alexander the not-so-great. Other prophecies also fit; numismatists mention the staring eyes of Constantine on his coins and statues; and Daniel says 'a king of stern visage'. There's plenty more. The thing about the 'mouth speaking great things' is certainly true; he did what no one else did, he turned Christians against Jews, and went from persecuting Christianity, to making it the only accepted religion; although it was according to Nicaean doctrines, which is very different from Jesus' doctrines. He wanted to be head of all religion on his terms only, for the entire Roman empire, and he did just that. Wow. And, Daniel has described him, though 17 centuries of scholarship did not notice. How could they NOT notice that there were two Greek kings who fought the Medes and Persians, who both divided their kingdoms into four parts, none of which went to their children???? Only One Power could possibly pull that off. That Power is Yahweh. And those other enigmas, the 2300 evenings-mornings; the 1290 days; the 1335 days; the 70 weeks, and 62 weeks, and 7 weeks -- all accounted for, very elegantly, to the very year each time; and this was predicted 26 centuries ago. This is a feat that took me a long time to comprehend. That this was not seen for so long at all, is the most astonishing wonder I've ever come across. And Yahweh did it, just as he said he would. He also says quite a bit more. I didn't discover this because of any brilliance or greatness; I have neither training nor credentials; no one with recognition wants any part of me. All I did was ask, and I was told the answer by some messengers in dreams over weeks. I fall asleep easily and dream a lot; that's my only credentials, a trait that plagued me in school. All the glory goes to Yahweh; I deserve none of it, nor do any of the great scholars, except for those dazzled by impressive foolishness. I need a nap. Goodnight.