Hi Phil

Did anyone respond to your query about Gruoch. I am interested in her too. I have been researching for a while and now written a novel which I hope to publish soon. A very interesting lady.

What did you find out?

Kind regards

Claire

Hi Claire

Great to hear from you - only reply I've received.

It’s interesting you’re writing a novel based on Gruoch. Do you have a publisher? I’ve written a poem focused on Gruoch and Shakespeare’s Lady Macbeth (a section for each). Trouble is, so little info available re Gruoch’s direct life, the section devoted to her is rather ‘light on’.

The info I have obtained (from both websites & hardcopy histories), follows. As you're no doubt aware, different sources provide different information/names/spelling (Gaelic/anglicised), etc.; so it may not be completely accurate – it’s the best I’ve managed to glean on basis of what seems reasonable to accept.

Since you’ve written a Gruoch novel, I guess you have a lot more direct info. Do you live in Scotland? I’m in Australia; Scottish sources here are limited to the net (which I’m not overly skilled at using) plus general histories. I’d love to know more about Gruoch’s actual life – what she did, thought, wore, wrote (if anything), etc. So if you’re able to share what you know, that’d be great.

best wishes Phil

GRUOCH

heiress of Clan Duff; granter of lands in Fife (jointly with her husband MACBETH, see below).

wife/queen of MACBETH

no dates/places for birth/death of GRUOCH

all sources indicate GRUOCH had a child by her first marriage with GILLACOMGAN (below). Some say no further details of child are known; others indicate child's name was LULACH.

LULACH (no birth date/place available). Some websites claim he was known as "Lulach the Fool”. One website further claims that after MACBETH was killed, LULACH reigned as king for one year (1057-1058), and that Malcolm III (below) came to throne in 1058, not 1057.

GILLACOMGAN, died 1032, was Mormaer of Moray (later ‘Murray’) and son of Maelbridge (below).

MACBETH was GRUOCH’s 2nd husband whom she married ‘after Gillacomgan was killed’. GRUOCH & MACBETH apparently had two children: FIRST SON (name & other details unknown); second son, MACBEATHA MCFINLAY.

MACBEATHA MCFINLAY, Thane of Cromarty, was born in Cromarty before 1057, died 1093.

no other info of GRUOCH's actual life. Details of GRUOCH’s and MACBETH’s ancestry, and their respective claims to be Scotland’s monarch, follow.

GRUOCH LINEAGE

GRUOCH's claim to the throne (if that’s the correct term in this context) was based on her being the granddaughter of KENNETH III (below).

GRUOCH’S FATHER was BODHE. No details re GRUOCH’S MOTHER.

BODHE (no dates/places available) was Chief of the Clan of Duff & son of KENNETH III.

KENNETH III, King of Albany (as Scotland was apparently known at the time) and Chief of the Clan of Duff, died 1005, reigned 997-1005, son of Duff.

Duff (Dubhe), King of Albany, died 967, reigned 962-967, son of Malcolm I.

Malcolm I (MacDonald), King of Albany or ‘Alba’, born c. 880, died 954, reigned 942-954, was son of Donald II (way below). Malcolm had 2 sons: Duff (above) and Kenneth II (below). Through his first son Duff, Malcolm was great great grandfather of GRUOCH. Through his second son Kenneth II, he was also great great grandfather of MACBETH.

more to follow

MACBETH LINEAGE

MACBETH's claim to the throne was twofold:

through his mother DONADA, he was grandson of MALCOLM II (below)
through his father FINDLAECH (below), he was a descendant of RUARDI (below) and, therefore, of LORNE/LORAN McERIC (below).

Kenneth II, also known as Cinaed, King of Albany, born c. 920, died 995, reigned 971-995, was father of MALCOLM II.

MALCOLM II, King of Albany, born c. 950, died 1034, reigned 1005- 1034, married Aelifu (2nd wife) and they were parents of Bethoc (below), Alice (below), and DONADA (below), MOTHER OF MACBETH.

Prior to his death, MALCOLM II apparently anointed his grandson Duncan (Duncan I below) to become king, which bypassed the ‘official’ method of his successor being chosen by tanistry.

Bethoc, 978-1045, Abbot of Dunkeld, married Crinan (Lay Abbot of Dunkeld & head of the House of Atholl) & they had 2 children: Duncan I (below) and Maldred (below).

Duncan I, “The Gracious”, succeeded MALCOLM II, had 3 children: Malcolm III (below), King Domnall III, and Maelmare. Duncan I was apparently born out of wedlock.

Malcolm III (Camnore), died 1093, succeeded either MACBETH in 1057 or LULACH (above) in 1058 (see above) and reigned until 1093.

Maldred was ruler of Cumbria. It’s unknown as to whether Maldred was born in or out of wedlock.

Alice married Sigurd, Earl of Orkney and they were parents of Thorfinn.

Thorfinn, Earl of Sutherland and also became Thane of Moray (a position particularly powerful at the time).

DONADA was MOTHER OF MACBETH and married FINDLAECH (below), father of MACBETH.

MACBETH (Mac Bethad), reigned over Scotland 1040-1057 & was killed in battle by forces led by Malcolm III. (Some sources provide MACBETH's birth year as 1005, others say it’s unknown.)

FINDLAECH (other names: McRuaidhri Finley and, like his father RUARDI, also known as ‘McRuari’), was FATHER OF MACBETH. He died 1020 and was Earl of Moray. One website states FINDLAECH was ‘slain to make MALCOLM II the sole king’. Another website further suggests it was FINDLAECH’s ‘two nephews’ who murdered him. These nephews would be Maelbridge’s (below) sons, one of whom was ‘Malcolm King of Moray’ (below) and the other was GILLACOMGAN (above). If true, this would mean GROUCH’s first husband was one of the murders of MACBETH’s father.

RUARDI (Rudidhri, ‘McRuari’), Thane of Moray and Ross, Chief of Clan of Fionnlaoich (‘Son of Fergus’), was (apparently) particularly powerful, ruling over (present) Shire of Ross & a considerable portion of north-west Scotland. A descendant of LORNE/LORAN McERIC. RUARDI had 2 sons: Maelbridge (below) and FINDLAECH (above).

LORNE/LORAN McERIC, born 470, died 500, is often known as first king of 'Albain', the early Scots kingdom, before unification with the Picts (see Kenneth I below).

Maelbridge, ruler of Moray, father of ‘Malcolm King of Moray’ and GILLACOMGAN (above).

through his father Maelbridge (brother of FINDLAECH), GILLACOMGAN was MACBETH's cousin. GRUOCH therefore successively married two men who were first cousins.

more to follow

Sorry, I've posted these in wrong order. Read upwards from first at bottom.

cheers Phil

BACKWARDS FROM GRUOCH/MACBETH LINK TO 'UNIFICATION' OF SCOTLAND & KENNETH I

Donald II (Domhnull II), King of Albany, died 900, reigned 889-900 and was son of Constantine I

Constantine I, King of Albany, 862-867 (presumably a child king), reigned 863-867, son of Kenneth I

Kenneth I (MacAlpin), born 810, died either 858 or 860, reigned from 843 to either 858 or 860. It’s often said Kenneth was the first king of a united Scotland (known in that period as 'Alba' or 'Albany'), but there is considerable dispute as to whether this unification happened at that time, and as to whether Kenneth MacAlpin was its ruler. Also, he has often been known as a Scots king who, forcibly or otherwise, incorporated the Picts into his Scots kingdom to create the unified country. Other sources claim Kenneth was a Pict King who forced/brought the Scots under his Pictish kingdom to create the unified country.

whatever the truth as to whether Kenneth I (MacAlpin) was a Scot or a Pict, it seems people of the traditional Pictish regions of Scotland (including Moray and Ross) believed, at the time of Duncan I (see below), that the Scots had, since the time of Kenneth I, dominated rule of the unified Scotland and (therefore) the Pict regions. The Picts were resentful of this domination and simmering with animosity towards the Scots.

another issue was that apparently, in theory at least, monarchs of the unified Scotland were chosen, not by the traditional English/European method of primogeniture, but elected by the collective royal family from within their own ranks. In theory, this meant that a woman could be chosen as sovereign, though I’m not aware of any recorded cases of such. The royal who was chosen, had to be born within wedlock. This method of choosing the ruler is known as ‘tanistry’, apparently a traditional gaelic/celtic practice also used in Ireland in the same era.

it appears that MACBETH and GRUOCH made their push for MACBETH to become king:

on the basis of their dual claims to the throne (MACBETH actually having 2 claims, which could be interpreted as the couple having in total 3 claims)
exploiting peoples’ resentment of MALCOLM II’s breach of tanistry & the consequent appointment of Duncan I as king
promoting MACBETH’s legitimacy whilst exploiting resentment regarding Duncan’s illegitimacy
exploiting Pictish hostility regarding an apparent 200 years of dominance

Hi Phil

I shall spend the weekend reading your mails. Fascinating isn't it? I found out something about Gruoch, which inspired me to write the book, and I'm just sorting out a few odds and ends now. I haven't got a publisher yet. I am living in England. I travelled to Scotland this summer to visit locations that I believe Gruoch lived. It was a very interesting trip but frustrating as several sites were sealed off from the public, which I found very intriguing. I shall respond fully very soon Phil and fill in a few gaps for you.

Kind regards
Claire

Part 10 As you can see historian's confusion that there are now simultaneously 2 Earls (Mormaers) of Fife, one bestowed by the Culdees who were the traditionally law makers and the other created by the new King Malcolm III. There lies the conundrum, are you a follower of Gruoch's family or of Malcolm Canmore's? How canny of Gruoch's granddaughter to marry a son of Canmore’s and therefore continues the DNA line through to another generation. Sorry for my ramblings. I do hope that my ideas may throw a spin onto what you may have already learned?

I would love to know how you develop your poetry and read some if available at all in the future?

I still have a few bits to tie up with my book, but it is based on some of the above information.

My best wishes

Part 9 Malcolm was Duncan's legitimate son. When Macbeth was killed it was the stepmother's son who was believed to have orchestrated the death. Malcolm bestowed many things onto this young man, was that an acknowledgement of his half brother and in gratitude of disposing of MacBeth or mixture of both? This young man called himself MacDuff. Meaning son of Duff or from the line of Duff. King Duff was an ancestor of Brude, thereby declaring himself descended from there, when Malcolm Canmore became king he gave the lands of Fife to MacDuff and he built a castle there and he was known as the Earl of Fife.

Part 8 If for example the son was not Brude's, then who was his father? I believe it was King Duncan's love child. This is the reason why the stepmother had the capacity to raise any army against Gillecomgain, a costly thing to do, with Duncan’s help. She and her child who had been living in Fife since Brude's assassination, had to flee when MacBeth rampaged after Duncan's death. Without Duncan to protect her she needed to find a safe haven, and in fact she fled to a Saxon England and it seems her son was brought up with his half brother, Malcolm Canmore being similar in age.

Part 7 Lulach was known after his time as "the Fool", which had a different meaning then, it meant innocent or naive and not an idiot as we would consider now. If you think that he was raised not by men of violence and battle, but by learned men of peace and religion, then his inability to hold the throne against Malcolm Canmore is more understandable perhaps. Recently an excavation on the Island of Iona showed that the remains which were supposed to be that of King MacBeth were in fact not his. It is believed the Gruoch may have taken his remains and with the Culdees had him secretly interred to ensure he laid at rest and was not desecrated by the Saxon people. I believe that once her son had also been assassinated Gruoch would have become a Culdee herself, ended her days in religious solitude. She had quite an extensive family and I understand her granddaughter married one of Malcolm Canmore's sons. He is documented to have been declared the "Mormaer of Fife" by the Culdees. This backs my theory that they believed his right by marrying Gruoch's granddaughter to the inheritance of Brude. Which leaves us with the mystery of Gruoch’s stepmother and her son?

Part 6 By the time of Malcolm Canmore and St Margaret forwards, the Culdees were pressured out of their homesteads, were taxed heavily to ensure they could no longer continue their teachings. Each Culdee settlement has ended up with a church or cathedral built on it which has totally destroyed everything before. My perception of Gruoch is that she was not a tyrant or manipulative as suggested. She was a very young girl of about 14 when she married the first time, was frightened and alone and found sanctuary with the Culdees, was rescued by MacBeth. Helped to bring peace and unite her nation. Her son Lulach did become King for 9 months, probably with her influence and the fact that the Culdees were the anointers of Kings and the keepers of the Stone of Destiny. I believe the Stone of Destiny was then hidden by the Culdees at that time and a replica brought into play because I cannot believe that the Culdees would have let Malcolm who had been brought up in England and followed the Saxonian religious system take their heritage and their stone. The stone that was then taken to England and placed at Westminster by Edward the Confessor therefore was a fake, a secret that has remained a mystery for 1000 years. The real stone therefore still remains hidden in Scotland and could become part of the biggest treasure hunt EVER.

Part 5 This means Gruoch is in a very vulnerable situation. A new baby, Lulach, her father and husband dead. Her stepmother and her baby in situ at Brude's castle. Gruoch finds sanctuary and who would she turn to but the Culdees... again the ones who had helped her father. They hide her and her son, till eventually rescued by MacBeth. He has deposed his cousin, Duncan (their mothers were sisters), he avenges his other cousin's death (Gillecomgain) and rescues Gruoch from hiding and marries her, and because of her claim to the throne through her grandfather, MacBeth can become king. They are very popular and rule for 17 years together. They are pious and follow the teachings of the Culdees. MacBeth went to meet with Pope Leo IX in Rome apparently in 1050ad, I believe part reason would be to negotiate on behalf of the Culdees who were being directed to change their ideas, which had worked so well, to fall in line with the Roman church. They were the backbone of Alba's education, legal system and medicine men. They were highly respected for their understanding of nature and intermingled these with ideas of God and teachings of Christ. However they celebrated Easter on separate days to the Romanic church and they quite often were in relationships and had families of their own, passing their knowledge from father to son, which was now considered unacceptable by Rome.

Part 4 The lands would have belonged to Gruoch as Brude's heir. As we know nothing of Gruoch's early life I have made the assumption that she grew up in Fife and perhaps her mother of Pictish background died in her early childhood. Brude remarried around the same time as Gruoch herself married Gillecomgain (MacBeth's cousin through their fathers). Gillecomgain had become at this time Mormaer of Moray on his brother's death. I believe that Brude's new wife became pregnant and there may have been doubt to the father of the child, but cuckolded Brude would have thought "his" son his new heir rather than Gruoch, so Gillecomgain furious that his wife's inheritance had been taken away, raises his men in anger and Brude is killed. By retaliation the Brude's widow is able to raise an army and Gillecomgain and 50 of his men are killed.

Part 3 One of these monks was Andrew de Wyntoun who lived on the island mentioned. It is believed that there may have been a library of great value left by the Culdees and eventually destroyed by the Romanic church followers. When I went up this summer it was my intention to visit this place, however it is now a sanctuary for geese and the only way to view the island is through a telescope from an RSPB reserve called Vane Farm. I did this and I could see the ruins of Andrew de Wyntouns church but nothing remains of the Culdees sadly. Brude I understand, was of the early Scots faith which was the same as the Culdees, hence the reason for giving moneys to these Culdees. However when his father was killed in battle with Malcolm II, he was still a child, the Culdees (my assumption) may have given him sanctuary on the island. Brude became King of Fife (Mormaer), and his castle would have been on the foundations of where MacDuff eventually built his castle when MacBeth died.

Part 2 I wanted to find out more about Gruoch because I was unravelling my family tree, the Brodie Clan. Because they are an ancient clan I believe it is feasible to think that Brodie came from Brude which is the alternative name of Boedhe which you have found for Gruoch's father. I also established a link with Gruoch, MacBeth and Brude with the Culdee monks. Google them too to find out more. Gruoch's ancestor's and then she and MacBeth when they came to rule, gave money to the Culdees, but in particular those in Loch Inch at St Leven (google this). What fascinated me and I went to Loch Inch this summer was that there are 3 small islands in the Loch, one Mary Queen of Scots of a later period was imprisoned on. One the Culdees had a religious settlement which after St Margaret's time was given over to the roman church run by monks and priests who followed the rulings from the Pope as head of the Church.

Part 1 Sorry to have taken so long, work commitments etc. Like you I've found a plethora of information before and after the times of Gruoch and there was plenty of propaganda written by individuals after Malcolm Canmore. People wishing to ingratiate themselves on the monarchy who came afterwards. The main culprit for this was Andrew de Wyntoun who I understand wrote the Chronicles of Scotland and his works were published and from this Shakespeare took his ideas to create the play MacBeth. Historians and other learned people since have slowly picked at this chronicle and discovered many failings and misquotes. However I have googled and found a copy of that which I am sure you will be able to do. Old Scots language mixed with Latin quadrants.

Dear Claire

I apologise for my tardy response. A lot is happening in my lil' world: performances with a choir I'm in; MC for a book launch; preparation to undertake a Master of Arts; overnight visits to cousins in the mountains. And, to boot, RSI in my hands which slows my typing a great deal.

How exciting that you may be a descendant of Brude/Boedhe! And thereby related also to Gruoch. That would certainly give one an 'investment' in learning more and, indeed, imagining their lives through a novel. How different things can be from what dramatists make them: I appreciate your point about Grouch's vulnerability and that she would have been only about 14 when married. Interesting too, re the mix with Latin. I hadn't thought of that, but it's 'logical': our languages are 'living', constantly interacting with others and changing, even back then.

What an irony that there's times when heritage and preservation of the environment clash; you couldn't visit Iona (that sounds Greek; but then, Latin came from Greek, as did nearly all European languages, exceptions being Asiatic 'spinoffs' such as Hungarian, Finnish and the language of the Laplanders) because it is a sanctuary for geese. (con't next message)

My knowledge of the Stone of Destiny is limited to the fact that I've heard of it! I shall do some sniffing around to learn more; also re your other good suggestions. One thought about the Stone and the Culdees; is it possible that, due to brute force, they had no choice but to give it up? (Of course, I have little knowledge of the context.)

Another lil' thought: re 'fool', I find that people use it to either mean 'idiot' or 'naive' and also as a mix of both. It seems to me, there's often no clear boundary between the two. P'raps that's just an Australian thing. I can appreciate back then the 'idiot' connotation may not have been extant.

You obviously have, so to speak, the admirable 'fire in the belly' for your subject with your committed research and imaginative ideas in your novel. Do you have a title for it? Have you had other novels/works published?

I'm a moderately successful poet; widely published in Australia (a handful published in UK, US, Taiwan, New Zealand). And achieved lots of awards (nothing 'Big Time'). Some short fiction published/awarded and a few book reviews, articles, non-fiction book chapters.

con't...

My father's family (ILTON) have been traced back to Aaron Ilton of Berkshire who died in 1721; we don't know when he was born. I have a photocopy of his will, which is a bit of a thrill... (dated 1718). And whilst he had enough wealth to warrant a will (most 'everyday' people apparently didn't have wills in those days - nothing of value to bequeath & couldn't afford the "attorney's" - which I believe was the usual expression for lawyers then and, as we know, still is in the US - fees), he had something in 'common' with the 'common' people: he was illiterate and (literally...) had to sign the will with his thumbprint! And I thought that only happened in ('Boys Only'...) pirate novels... The exotic family history doesn't stop there. On their emigrating voyage to Australia in 1852-53, my great, great, grandparents & their 10 children were shipwrecked & had to get another boat... But that's another story.

I'd be happy for you to read my draft Gruoch/Lady Macbeth poem; if you contact me at my email address, I'll send it to you:

ernmalley@westnet.com.au

Thanks for all your assistance & it's great having such interesting communication with someone on the other side of the globe.

best wishes phil

What an exciting life you are leading! So sorry about the RSI such a pain especially for this type of work! The Island of Iona is where all the early Scottish Kings are buried and you can visit there, although I have never been. That is why it interested me that MacBeth's grave was there but research proves the skeleton within was not his. I hope I hear more about this, because if it was a female skeleton for example I wondered if it was Grouch!! If it was I could have one of the expensive DNA tests done to see if we are related !! The island which is a goose sanctuary now is St Serf's Inch or St Serf's Island is an island in Loch Leven, in south-eastern Perth and Kinross, Scotland where the Culdees hid Gruoch and Lulach. It was the same Island where Portmoak Priory was eventually built and where Andrew de Wyntoun found their library of books and wrote his Chronicle of Scotland. It is a fresh water lake filled with a particular brown trout found nowhere else in the world. The latin was because Andrew de Wyntoun c. 1350 – c. 1423 AD was a Prior and the clery wrote much in Latin. Andrew de Wyntoun wrote in old worlde scottish rhyme and followed the earlier latin texts. Sometimes he embellished to ensure his lines were rythmical rather than historically accurate!! I work in Stratford upon Avon so if you want me to research anything about the Baird, Shakespeare let me know. Write as and when lovely to keep in touch but not at the expense of RSI risk. Take it easy.

Claire,

I have just begun to research Gruoch and would be very interested in your novel. Do you know when it will be published.

Regards,

Deborah

Dear Phil, Claire and Deborah. Regarding MacBeth and Gruoch, Gerald Mckinnon, clan sennachie of the Clan Finguin (Mackinnon)has recently researched Macbeth's family in depth, consulting both the Irish records, and the surviving records and monuments of the West highlands of Scotland. His conclusions:

1. MacBeth had at least two sons by Gruoch, one of whom (Murchetach?) fled to Ulster in Ireland when Lulach was killed. Murchetach's grandson, Cormac,was educated in the Celtic Church and later was appointed Bishop of Dunkeld by King Alexander I in 1116. He married, had a large family of sons ,some of whom founded highland clans (Macquarries, Mackinnons,Mac Gregors, etc).

2. Lulach's daughter married her own cousin, Aedh, Mormaor of Ross, who was probably a grandson of King MacBeth's uncle, Donald mac Ruaridh. The Mackay chiefs are descended from this marriage.

3. Gruoch was a grand-daughter of King Cinnaedh IV.

4. Macbeth was likely a grandson of King Cinnaedh III. MacBeth's mother was a sister of King Mael-Colum II.

5. MacBeth claimed the Scottish Throne as a descendant of King Ferchar II "the Tall" who reigned as Scottish king of Dal-Riada from 673- 694.

6. Gruoch was the Heiress of the House of Alpin or Cinel Gabran, which became exticnt in the male line on the death of Mael-Colum II in 1034.

7. Lulach was more senior in the line of descent from the kings of Dal-Riada, and also in the female line of descent from King Alpin. This is why he, and not MacBeth's sons succeeded to the Throne. MacBeth's line was junior to that of Gille-Comgain, father of Lulach.

Hello Claire,
I have just discovered this site and your post. I am also very interested in Gruoch. There is a site in Ballingry, Fife, known as Gruoch's well, though we ouldn't find it.
She is the first Scottish ueen listed in her own right as ruler of Scotland. We discovered this at Dunfermline Abbey.
I would love to learn more from you and definitely love to read your novel.
Thanks,
Kath

Phil,

My Name is Shawn McCulloch

Your ignorance is due to the fact that you have not done any research.

Gruoch married the Earl of Moray, and as she was of royal descent, Mcbeth sought her out, her cousin required her for his warrior kingdom. fought Ghilocomain, and took her as his bride, they had other children, but they decided on he first child as the heir. He was eventually assassinated in 1057 or 58. He had children, whom eventually did not make claim to the kingship.

She was a queen, and Mcbeth took his stepson to Rome, where they gave alms to the poor. his kingship helped create the Independence of Scotland.

Clear

Shawn

There are also in Perth Library some old folk stories concerning McBeth they are not complementary as he was a hard King.

Yet peace reigned, in those hard times.

Shawn McCulloch

The real question is who was Gillacomain of Moray, whom had married a kings offspring.