I doubt very much that Jesus taught people to love their enemies. I also doubt that he told people to forgive everyone otherwise they could not be forgiven by God and some even say that they cannot have any relationship with God unless they forgive all others no matter what they have done or that the wrong doers have no remorse. The enemies of good people, ie humane people are evil people, ie the inhumane. By forgiving these people we essentailly do two things. One is to let them off with their crimes. The other is that the good person has no stance against the evil people, to stop them from being able to continually hurt them and/or others. When a person does an evil action they incur a triple debt. One debt is to the victim, one to the community and one to the Oneness or God. A person victimized or targeted for maltreatment has an ability to use the debt to stop the evil person and the evil person cannot attack or continue to attack them. If they just forgive they essentially throw away their weapons and allow the evil people to attack them with impunity. This is not a moral stance nor even sensible. I suspect that firstly the Romans, who were brutal colonizers wanted the submission of the people they ruled over and they exploited anything and everthing at their disposal. One can see how much they distorted the religons that they took from the Greeks. To give one clear example the god Dionysis, one of the Olympian gods was the god of the wine. Bliss is the wine. And certainly offerings of wine be made in celebration but the Romans took this and made this god into Baccus and not only used it to drink themselves into stupors but also to stage whole orgies etc. By Roman standards love thy enemies and forgive them of anything and everything was most convenient. And it seems that it was also taken on board by the various clergy down through the ages. The clergy even today leave a lot to be desired. One sees pedaphiles among them and they don't get punished or dismissed and sent away. They just get a new post where they are not known. Are these to be forgiven? I don't think so. This business of loving enemies and forgive them has lead us into the crisis of evil that we face in the world today.

If you use the Bible to reflect Jesus' teachings, then you have to recognize that He DID teach the love of enemies (Matt 5) - not because He's asking us to be vulnerable. He says is it to heap shame on those enemies. We're not to be the judges, He's retained that authority for Himself (" 'Vengeance is Mine, I will repay', says the Lord." = Rom 12).

What are the two commandments that Jesus gave His disciples (summarizing the original Ten Commandments), in order of priority?
1. Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength.
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

His definition of *neighbor* was *everyone else besides you*.

If we love God, then we naturally want to please Him (because we know He has our best interests at heart). We trust Him because He loves US. Reciprocation would lead us to follow His admonitions and seek to live as He asks.

We're also told that we are "in the world" and not "of the world" (John 17). His point was that we're passing through this temporary condition (mortal, physical life) and will end up in a final condition (immortal, spiritual life). Our soul, the one thing about us that is not destroyed when the body dies (given by God to us, just as Adam was brought to life), is unaffected by the body's passing (and the soul returns to God).

We're told that by "turning the other cheek" (Matt 5), and forgiving those who injure/abuse us, we "heap burning coals on their heads" (Prov 25) that will be intolerable shame when they're standing at His final judgment. Unrepentant sinners, with these shameful evidences against them, will be sentenced to eternal suffering outside of God's care - tormented by Satan (and demons) and their own consciences.

Yes, coddling enemies will give them opportunities to hurt us again - but their fate will be sealed (if they're unrepentant for their actions), or they'll be confused and unable to act further (because of the unnatural reactions we make). You have to ask yourself, "Where are you intending to be, when this is all over"? Are you worried about this tiny speck of time (human lifespan), or about the eternity beyond (infinity)?

If you "love your neighbor as yourself", then you want them to treat you as you're treating them. Example: If you are erroneously offended by what you hear are a neighbor's actions/words and start beating him up, would you want the neighbor to do the same to you? Or, would you want him to fend off the blows and try to calm you down - showing you your mistake, and not holding your ignorance against you?

You do not understand what evil people are about one little iota. There is a war going on between good and evil. Thus far the good people have not fully appreciated this because the damage is explained away for profit's sake.. but whom? Those that we are asked to trust with our lives -the doctors! Stress and the diseases that eventuate are caused through toxic relationships. These are none other than evil people, presenting a good public face to others around them and using the relationship, the trust and the well wishing of the other to savagely hurt them, and to hurt them shamelessly, remorselessly, for kicks. They get pleasure from hurting innocent people. If we take your attitude then they get to win the war and the world is destroyed. Yes it might be a bleep of time but God created it for a purpose not aimlessly. You don't seem to appreciate that "holy books" can be and often are corrupted. Where the Bible is concerned we have NO originals at all! Like not even one manuscript. Even Matthew, Mark, Luke and John is all written by unnamed authors. It's all "the gospel according to". This smacks of corruption.
Take a look at Gandhi for argument's sake. He was a Hindu but he said he "related" to the message of Jesus and said much the same as you have said in your reply, The history is there stark for us to see. He sent wave after wave of unarmed Indian to protest the British (and really we are not talking the British as in the British peoples but the British colonizers in India, the East India Company and the British military officers, many of whom were corrupt, that supported them). Gandhi claimed as you do above that when they saw what they were doing they would be brought to their senses. The corrupt British colonizers did no such thing. They just cut them down, by the hundreds, by the thousands. One English general cordoned off a square where 50,000 were staging a peaceful demonstration and he killed every last one of them, men, women, children, even the animals present like horses and dogs. In a court he was asked to answer and he admitted it and defended it. He was asked if there were twice the number would he have killed them all. He said yes and added if there were three times the number and provided he had enough ammunition he would have killed them all too. It is senseless to say that innocent, humane people should be just cut down without defending themselves and Justice. I would have gathered together the Hindus, Muslims, Shiks and others and armed them and said to them stand up to the British but with the first shot that the British fire GO "EM destroy them. The Indians outnumbered the Brits 4,000 to one! Today India would have been united and it is possible all that sectarian violence would be non-existent. Instead of that 2million Indians died then and possibly as many since and the problems do not end. Before the British left they saw the smouldering fires between the various groups and threw plenty of fuel to the fire.
Religion is partly about addressing suffering and finding answers to improving the life here. It is not all about the hereafter. Christianity has the worst track record and it appears to be scriptures such as this "love thy enemies" that is non-sensical. I doubt very much that Jesus said this at all. I don't buy it because I see the results when these things are applied. If you look at the people who love their enemies you find those people are hurt again and again and they expose their families as well to unnecessry harm.

Kyrani wrote: "You do not understand what evil people are about one little iota."
Contrary to your statement, I do know these trouble-makers. I've met some of them, both in school (as bullies) and as an adult.

Kyrani wrote: "There is a war going on between good and evil."

That there is... The folks who are offending are human beings, like you and me. They've placed their expectations solely in their own abilities, rather than where it belongs (with their creator). By doing that, they've left themselves open to influence by Satan and his minions. In this world, Satan is more powerful than we are.

Kyrani wrote: "Thus far the good people have not fully appreciated this because the damage is explained away for profit's sake...but whom? Those that we are asked to trust with our lives - the doctors! Stress and the diseases that eventuate are caused through toxic relationships. These are none other than evil people, presenting a good public face to others around them and using the relationship, the trust and the well wishing of the other to savagely hurt them, and to hurt them shamelessly, remorselessly, for kicks."

Doctors only know as much as science likes to think it's found out. The people aren't evil - it's who influences them who's evil. The target is Satan, the father of lies and deceit.

Kyrani wrote: "If we take your attitude then they get to win the war and the world is destroyed."

If you look through the Bible (Isaiah, Daniel, Revelation), then you'll find that is exactly what is bound to happen - as long as people ignore God in favor of their own selfish desires. Evil will then influence their lives and chaos and dissolution will result.

What is encouraging, is that Christians believe that those who accept Jesus' role in this 'war on sin' will leave this planet just before 'tribulation' becomes unbearable and Christ returns defeating Satan and his demons. All a cause for hope.

Kyrani wrote: "Take a look at Gandhi for argument's sake. He was a Hindu but he said he 'related' to the message of Jesus and said much the same as you have said in your reply."

Gandhi's message was 'passive resistance', and aimed at the Indian population's increasing rebellious attitude toward the British occupation. By refusing to work (the original 'sit in'), the Indians stopped the British trade extraction mechanism on resources and manufactured goods. It rendered India useless to the British trade, and had to be abandoned because cost outreached benefit.

Kyrani wrote: "The history is there stark for us to see. He sent wave after wave of unarmed Indian to protest the British (and really we are not talking the British as in the British peoples but the British colonizers in India, the East India Company and the British military officers, many of whom were corrupt, that supported them). Gandhi claimed as you do above that when they saw what they were doing they would be brought to their senses. The corrupt British colonizers did no such thing. They just cut them down, by the hundreds, by the thousands. One English general cordoned off a square where 50,000 were staging a peaceful demonstration and he killed every last one of them, men, women, children, even the animals present like horses and dogs. In a court he was asked to answer and he admitted it and defended it. He was asked if there were twice the number would he have killed them all. He said yes and added if there were three times the number and provided he had enough ammunition he would have killed them all too."

Some who are entreated to realize their errors do not always respond positively. Free will has a curious tendency to require the cooperation of the one who wields it...

Kyrani wrote: "It is senseless to say that innocent, humane people should be just cut down without defending themselves and Justice. I would have gathered together the Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs and others and armed them and said to them stand up to the British but with the first shot that the British fire GO "EM destroy them. The Indians outnumbered the Brits 4,000 to one! Today India would have been united and it is possible all that sectarian violence would be non-existent. Instead of that 2 million Indians died then and possibly as many since and the problems do not end. Before the British left they saw the smouldering fires between the various groups and threw plenty of fuel to the fire."

The intra-faith rivalries of the Indians stood in the way of their efficient coallesence into a unified front against the British... I think that would be the case regardless of whether or not the Indian factions employed 'passive resistance' before armed conflict. But, I do think the passivity (albeit clumsily done) was being used to buy the militants time to organize.

Kyrani wrote: "Religion is partly about addressing suffering and finding answers to improving the life here. It is not all about the hereafter."

Perhaps other faiths than the Judeo-Christians are seeking this. But, the main point was to place oneself right again with God. This life is tainted by a fall from grace, due to mankind's disobedience. To shake it off, one must be right with God in order for the soul to be salvaged.

When I hear you call evil people trouble makers I am sure you don't understand who they are. Evil people are serious criminally harmful. As for the doctors, don't kid yourself. They know full well that they feed the public misinformation. It is the doctors and not "science". For instance you see on television many of the medical show ponies talking about a person's "medical statistics" in what they name a truth tube. You see them time after time quoting blood pressure with no mention of the heart rate. They know full well that the blood pressure has to be related to the heart rate to be meaningful. They know for instance that ESP is a reality and inside relationship it is very strong and yet they are talking about people being paranoid and misreading others etc. In other words they are deliberately going against the science. The truth is that if people didn't get sick they'd be begging in the streets and if they didn't get sick by the millions they wouldn't enjoy the capitalist's dream.
Now as for Satan, you sure got that wrong. There is no spiritual entity that has independent existence and volition and personality that we might call Satan or the devil. The mindset of evil is created. It comes about by a collective of evil people that have a common evil mindset. It is the collective of evil people that create Satan. To say that Satan lead them astray is quite wrong. No one lead them astray. They know full well what they are doing. It is wilful harm done for kicks. The sin and the sinner are one and the same.
As for the Indians they did not achieve their objective of Independence by the actions of passive resistance, nor did they make the corrupt East India company people straight again. The British nation did not want another war after the second world war was over and that is why they conceded and gave the Indians their independence.
I agree with you that to recover from the fall from Grace one has to be right with God again. And that has to be achieved in this life before the death of the body. This is apotheosis or enlightenment, Nirvana whatever you like to call it. But only good people have that option. Evil people have thrown that option away. They know God exists but they are haters of God and they have not merely fallen, they have crossed an abyss from which there is no way back. You need to appreciate that if this world is not made right too then future generations won't have a world worth living in. That would rob them of the ability to seek their salvation too.

Kyrani wrote: "As for the doctors, don't kid yourself. They know full well that they feed the public misinformation. It is the doctors and not 'science'. "...etc...etc...

Just so I can be clearer on some of this emotional tirade you're spouting...

1. Do you have a reason (or reasons) for holding 'doctors' in contempt? Did you have a bad experience with them?
2. Are you an aspiring medical student?

Kyrani wrote: "Now as for Satan, you sure got that wrong. There is no spiritual entity that has independent existence and volition and personality that we might call Satan or the devil."

Another question - since you agreed with my statements, in the last section of your response. What is the faith-based brand of religion which you follow?

I ask this, because you refer to God (as a certainty) and yet deny Satan as an entity certainty. This is confusing...

I had begun to realize that many diseases, such as heart disease and cancer were the result of maltreatment meted out of toxic relationships, (essentially utilizing ESP which is very strong inside of relationships). In my naivety back then I wrote to 1000 doctors and sent them a copy of a fairly lengthy report that I had prepared showing how the foul games are played. They were mute. I though maybe they have too much work to answer so I rang some of them. some denied knowing anything about my correspondence, some were rude and some hung up the phone as soon as they realized who I was. But it did not end there. Within about a month of sending out the reports I found the violence against me escalated exponentially. I was and am under seige. The people who want to permanently silence me are not only doctors but there are doctors among them. One with the attitude that I was sticking my nose where it doesn't belong. As if we the public, the people who suffer illness should be kept in the dark and stay in the dark. Furthermore many of the attempts to brutally stress me are honed and trimmed when they fail to try and extract some fatal condition. I have a very real and legitimate right to complain. The evil people (which includes many doctors) are trying to stop me from bring the message to ordinary people. They got no chance, I know I win against them all.

I am first generation Greek in Australia so I am Australian but I am also Greek. My father was an atheist but liked the Greek church only because it was Greek and all thing Greek in his eyes were worthy of respect. My mother was a fanatic fundamentalist Greek Orthodox, though I discovered only recently before she died that she was hardly a god fearing person but a demon. I was baptised in the Greek Orthodox faith and as far as Christianity is concerned I like Greek Orthodoxy the best. However I found Christianity wanting when it came to providing me with a means to spiritual growth and enlightenment (apotheosis). I therefore studied other religions, Yoga, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism and Islam (mainly through Sufism). I have gained benefit from all of them but I belong to none of them. I am a Sufi in as much as I am a lover of God but I do not see God as a personal God. I consider Jesus to be a prophet or avatar of God. God is the Ultimate Reality. Satan is often conceptualized as a fallen angel (which is not only a concept in Christianity but also Islam and other religions too). Satan however has no spiritual integrity or reality. Satan exists while ever evil people exist to create the evil mindset. This mind set creates a seeming single entity but it is without power. They rely on suggestion under deceit to push another person to fall in a pit. When we understand how they operate we can stand strong against them and render them powerless, thus we destroy the evil mindset because the people who create it and sustain it perish.

What would be your preferred alternatives to forgiveness? We do not claim it is proper or just to take no stance against evil, but that the alternatives to forgiveness merely add to the evil without eliminating the debt.

I don't know what alternatives you have in mind that add to the evil. The debt is eliminated when evil people pay in the appropriate manner for their crimes. Forgiving someone for a wrong doing, even something very bad is warranted only when that person has the right attitude. That means that they are remorseful and want to make amends for their wrong doing. And wanting to make amends not dragged kicking and screaming to reconciliation. Evil people however are rotten to the core. They have nothing but black hatred in their hearts and apathy towards others. They are remorseless and where and when the opportunity arises to betray the person further and do more crimes they claim to be sorry and want to make amends but with the first opportunity, which might be seconds after they are forgiven they strike again. These people cannot be forgiven. It is a violation to all the humane people on the planet to forgive them. The alternative to letting them off eith the debt, which is all that forgiveness does, is to expose them and thereby render them powerless. And by expose I mean to do a clean sweep. To expose all those that support them. The corupt people in many areas including in the medical industry, in religious bodies, in politics and business etc. Take for instance the Christian churches, we see paedophiles in the priesthood been covered by the bishops etc. They are not punished, they just get moved from one area to another. I head one of these ministry preaches on television claiming the victims had to go to the priest that raped them repeatedly as a child and loaded them with guilt and forgive them. And if that didn't do that they would not be able to go to God, that God wouldn't want to have anything to do with them. I's sorry but that is GARBAGE! All that does is to send out a message loud and clear that if you are a paedophile, whether priest or elsewhere you get absolved for your wrong doing and you don't even need to give it up. You can continue to abuse to your heart's content. And you call that good? You call that not adding to the evil? The world is sesing a serious rise in the number of evil people and it is happening because we are letting them off with the crimes. Do you think for a moment that they are going to change? If you do you are deluded.. very deluded. The only solution is APOCALYPSE NOW! Apocalypse means the uncovering of what has been hidden and kept secret and that is the ways in which evil operate to take apart other people, their lives, their loved one etc. It is the destruction of the evil. That is the debt paid. Either you support good and the humane people in the world and the planet etc., or you support evil and the inhumane and the destruction of the planet. There is no fence to sit on and be idle.

It is illusory; The advent has made no real difference to human chances at all.Its a vote at Cambs Univ

Explain yourself a bit better. I don't understand what you mean.

Pedophiles have been punished - many are in prison and all have been removed from the priesthood and forbidden to be arounnd children. Who needs forgiveness in these cases is the establishment that permitted it to go on for so long. But it sounds from your writing that you are filled with black hatred for medical, political, and business people in general, which is a very large group. Do you know any specifics other than pedophilia? Forgiveness does not excude appropriate punishment, as that is what the civil law is about. But forgiveness does entail the forgiven and/or victim to cleanse his own heart enough to permit an act of forgiveness. There is no question that evil must be exposed where it exists, and that is what a lot of media and political work is about. So you need to start working with those professions to help them expose more. You will be welcomed since you have skills that can be employed to that end, in the investigative work or in advocacy work. But blinded by your own hatred you will get nowhere. You must work on your own hatred first. And practicing forgiveness is a good way to make some progress doing that.

Firstly if I had hatred in my heart, any hatred let alone black hatred I would hardly be interested in Justice. I would have joined the evil people.
Secondly I did not say that I had complaints about any group of people "in general". I specifically say that there are toxic people in all of these areas that are toxic /evil. And in all three areas, they being medical industry, politics and business, there is a great deal of corruption in these times.
Thirdly how do you know that all the pedophiles have been removed from the churches etc? I look at what happened there to the Athenian archbishop a few years back. And knowing what I know about cancer, I strongly believe that the man was MURDERED! This is a far greater crime. But hey if we complain about it or want to fight the establishment man we got black hatred in our hearts. You want people to "find it in their hearts to forgive" the culprits -the low life scum. And what civil court punishes that. Oh I know leave it to God. He'll punish them after their dead. That's a good way to start aye? And then what? We got to put up with evil people in the world? You sound either naive or someone who stands up for the culprits. Especially when you want to call a fighter for Justice as having black hatred in their heart. Whoever has decency in their hearts and love for the humane and not the criminals and the inhumane, is outraged by what is happening in the world. That outrage is what motivates people to move. And what about Jesus Christ he criticised the priest and turned the money tables over etc., did he also have black hatred in his heart?